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[Music]

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oh

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[Music]

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hello everybody welcome back to the

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channel and uh another calvin update

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this time it's a

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a q a so as you can see i'm joined by

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some friends and colleagues who have

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been working on the case

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and um

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one thing i'll say quickly is we have

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had an awful lot of questions sent

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before the show which we've kind of

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collated into some talking points which

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we'll we'll start off with so

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we're going to do it in part so the

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initial first part we'll be focusing on

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the photograph analysis

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and we'll move then through into the

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location and so on and so forth so if

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we're talking about the photo analysis

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if you've got questions about the photo

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analysis pop them into the the live chat

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we're in capitals if your questions

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about a different aspect we will get to

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that a bit later on because i might miss

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some questions i will do my best so

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before we get to the first talking point

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if uh if you gentlemen don't mind

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introducing yourselves who you are and

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how you became interested in the calvine

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case thank you

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i'm graham randall i'm a member of uap

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media uk so i'm one of vinnie's

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colleagues i am an author of aviation

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history books uh ufo history books

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and a podcaster i do an

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unidentified aerial podcast with dave

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partridge

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my interest in calvin started shortly

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after 1996 when nick pope first came up

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with the story in one of his books and

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went from there

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thank you andrew

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hi i'm andrew robinson i'm a senior

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lecturer in photography at sheffield

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hallam university and i work with david

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clarke and our colleague diane rogers as

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part of the center for contemporary

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legend this is a research group

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investigating legend folklore custom and

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its representation in different media

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and i've got 34 years of experience

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working in both analog and digital

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photography and i'm interested in the

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evidential nature of documentary

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photographs

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interpreted i've only recently become

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involved in the calvine class case when

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david asked me to copy the photograph as

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soon as he had obtained it from scotland

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and before it was deposited in the

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university's special collection archive

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thank you

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dave yep um i think you've summarized

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quite a lot of info there andrew yes so

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i'm david clarke associate professor

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in journalism and media at sheffield

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helm university i'm part of the same

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research group as andrew

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people will probably know i've been

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writing and um

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broadcasting about ufos and related

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anomalous subjects 40 and subjects i

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think you'd summarize it as for the last

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30 odd years certainly since i was a

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teenager

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um

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i've published more books than i can

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remember um

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i was involved in the national archives

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project that released um something like

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210 ministry of defense files into the

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public domain which ran between 2008 and

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2013 and that really is when i first

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sort of became properly aware of the

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calvine incident i mean i had read the

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two sentence mentioned in nick pope's

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book but i hadn't really taken much

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notice of it

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um and it wasn't until i saw i remember

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now the day i was reviewing the files i

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think it was 2009 because i saw all the

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files months ahead of the being released

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to the public and i saw that image you

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know the famous crop one that's now been

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superseded by the real one and just

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thought bloody hell that's the calvin

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ufo so

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at that point uh that's when i started

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thinking hmm yeah this is one that's

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worth following up and we'll perhaps

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talk about what i actually did back in

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2009 so when i was talking to craig

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about this uh he was saying oh well i've

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had this for 32 years and i said well

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not quite as much as you craig but i've

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been involved for 13 years so that's how

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charles

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mile away from calvin

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um i've probably been

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dealing with this for about a year i

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think

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it was about a year since

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dave

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contacted me so i've sort of helped with

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some of the local

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stuff some of the locations um

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including we've been out

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up to various points locally together

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earlier in the year

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um i first was aware of the case i think

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a few years ago but it was in the local

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press a couple years ago another appeal

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uh for information so that's where i

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became more interested in it and then

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said dave

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um

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through social media sort of asked for

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some sort of local assistant so so

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that's when i got involved

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fantastic and finally matthew

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hi all uh my name is matthew wilsley in

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april 2021 i came across the calvin case

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in the tabloid media and i messaged

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david clarke as a result of seeing the

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articles and

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seeking clarification as to what was in

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the files what wasn't and what was

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ultimately going to be released and

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i basically got swept down the rabbit

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hole along with the rest of us

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everything just began to uh we began to

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pull up this thread and uh lo and behold

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after uh a year and a half we uh we

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managed to succeed in in getting the

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photograph

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fantastic

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excellent thank you for that guys so

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let's start so i think initially andrew

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if you'd like to to give us your sort of

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small uh presentation and to discuss the

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analysis that would be

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a good point to start i think

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okay so i'm gonna share my screen sure

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um

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so hopefully you can all see

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there we go

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yep okay

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as i explained i kind of david asked me

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if i would uh

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copy the photograph um originally and so

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we met on the afternoon following his

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return from scotland

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and i produce both photographic copies

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and high resolution scans

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of the image itself the envelope that it

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was sent to craig in

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and photocopies that i believe were

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produced at the time in order to fax a

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copy of the image to london um

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the high resolution scans resulted in a

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this is a copy of this this is when we

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were actually scanning it in a 2.14

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gigabyte image so it's a

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it's a very detailed file unfortunately

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you you know the the the image itself

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doesn't have great detail in it because

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it's only a 10x8 print but nevertheless

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we can we can zoom in and i took uh

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still photographs so that we can make

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comparisons so if there's any

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uh anything that's a result of the

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scanning process you know dust on the

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screen or anything like that we can sort

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of double check against a photographic

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print

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um when i was doing this i was kind of

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saying to david oh well if you notice

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this if you notice that and in the end i

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i ended up doing a kind of a detailed

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analysis that i think david then it fed

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into your article a little bit as well

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didn't it david and certainly it's it's

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been uh this i think

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it's been shared by vinnie and and it's

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it's kind of

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people have responded to some of the uh

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the points that i made and i thought i'd

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now briefly cover some of these key

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points relating to the print

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so what's important to realize is that

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whilst the image is printed on color

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paper

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and it has a slight sepia tone it's a

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print from a black and white negative

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a color negative printed on color paper

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would not produce a black and white

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image no matter how you adjusted the

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color filtration during printing

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we also know this from the back stamp so

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this is a back stamp

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uh

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it's a big enlargement and usually it's

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quite faint but this is the back stand

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that covers the photographic paper and

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this is um you know this fits the era

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and and color paper produced by kodak

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and the image also has a print number on

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its back

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and this is a print number this hasn't

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been released before i i've been looking

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into this

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but unfortunately this number doesn't

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include a date it just gives the

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enlarger settings and various data codes

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the number of the machine and these can

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be preset by the the lab that's printing

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it and in this case

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i would assume that the printer was

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in-house at the daily record that they'd

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have a

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mini lab printer

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to produce this print

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surface abrasions on

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the print so in the center here we see

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the calvin print

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and uh on the left and the right uh are

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other prints of roughly the same area

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which i've scratched the surface off and

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you get a very similar result this is

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what you get when you scratch a

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color emulsion

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you kind of get this pinky

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uh yellowy coloring which is not the

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paper base it is kind of the

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the layer of emulsion beneath the the

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image layer

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so this is all consistent with it being

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a color print and in addition there's a

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little spot at the top left hand corner

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of the print which appears in this kind

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of turquoise green color and i'm

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struggling to really know what this is

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other than if it is

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uh an area of undeveloped paper so color

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paper when you take it out of the box in

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daylight which you should never do of

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course because you're ruining it but

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it's got a turquoise green base color

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and i'm wondering if there was something

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attached to the surface of the paper

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here which stopped the paper being

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processed at this point and that's a

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so all of this is consistent with it

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being a oops

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excuse me of it being a print

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um

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on color paper

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uh produced on a mini lab machine so not

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a dark room hand print uh but something

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produced on a mini lab the kind of mini

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lab that you'd have in a high street

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store and they can produce images images

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up to ten by eight in size

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and i'm confident this is a print made

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from a black and white negative on color

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paper now there's two different possible

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types of film that might produce the

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print the first is traditional silver

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based

282
00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:38,399
photography black and white films such

283
00:10:42,470 --> 00:10:40,880
as hp5 or kodak tri-x or any of the

284
00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:42,480
other black and white films and the

285
00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:44,880
other possible film is

286
00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:47,680
ilford xb1 or xb2

287
00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:49,760
which is a chromogenic film which you

288
00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:52,480
process in c41 color chemistry and

289
00:10:56,069 --> 00:10:54,480
originally i thought this might be a

290
00:10:57,509 --> 00:10:56,079
likely choice because it was a color

291
00:11:00,150 --> 00:10:57,519
print so

292
00:11:01,829 --> 00:11:00,160
xb1 you're processing color chemistry

293
00:11:04,069 --> 00:11:01,839
and then you would print it onto color

294
00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:04,079
paper and and it was introduced

295
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:08,640
in the 1980s by ilford because and it

296
00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:10,480
became quite popular in the 90s because

297
00:11:13,829 --> 00:11:12,000
a lot of labs didn't process black and

298
00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:13,839
white film anymore so this is a way of

299
00:11:17,269 --> 00:11:15,680
shooting black and white imagery and

300
00:11:19,829 --> 00:11:17,279
getting it processed in a high street

301
00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:19,839
lab however when i've done a closer

302
00:11:25,509 --> 00:11:22,720
analysis of the grain

303
00:11:26,949 --> 00:11:25,519
the original print in the center here if

304
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:26,959
i zoom in a bit

305
00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:29,519
looks much more like

306
00:11:33,190 --> 00:11:31,760
the grain structure of a traditional

307
00:11:35,110 --> 00:11:33,200
black and white film

308
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:35,120
rather than the grain structure

309
00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:38,640
of xb1 or xb2 which which is a much

310
00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:41,360
finer and a different kind of grain

311
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:44,000
so it's looking more like a traditional

312
00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:47,120
film but perhaps coarser grain than fp4

313
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:49,680
which is a hundred iso film so i think

314
00:11:54,829 --> 00:11:53,040
it's probably a 400 iso film we don't

315
00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:54,839
know but that's my

316
00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:56,480
interpretation

317
00:12:01,190 --> 00:11:57,760
next

318
00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:01,200
um

319
00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:02,480
in the print

320
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:04,560
especially along the lower edge where

321
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:07,680
there is a fence and fence posts you can

322
00:12:12,310 --> 00:12:10,480
see evidence of chromatic aberration now

323
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:12,320
what this is is a kind of a color

324
00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:13,839
fringing

325
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:15,839
either side of an object with a kind of

326
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:17,839
a bluish fringe on the right hand side

327
00:12:21,670 --> 00:12:20,320
here and a magenta fringe on the left

328
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:21,680
and side

329
00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:23,120
and

330
00:12:27,350 --> 00:12:24,800
this is produced at the edge of an image

331
00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:27,360
due to the dispersion of the lens

332
00:12:31,509 --> 00:12:29,839
uh which results in light of different

333
00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:31,519
wavelengths being focused at different

334
00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:32,480
points

335
00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:34,320
especially around the edges of images

336
00:12:38,069 --> 00:12:36,160
and this is generally produced by cheap

337
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:38,079
lenses

338
00:12:40,949 --> 00:12:38,880
and

339
00:12:43,030 --> 00:12:40,959
you wouldn't expect to see chromatic

340
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:43,040
aberration around an image in the center

341
00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:46,320
of the frame because this is an effect

342
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:47,839
that you see really at the edges of

343
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:50,720
frames like the edges of images and as

344
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:52,240
this is a black and white image this

345
00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:54,079
chromatic aberration must be a result of

346
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:56,240
the enlarging lens not the camera lens

347
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:58,240
because it's a black and white image

348
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:01,040
uh so it's probably a poor quality in

349
00:13:05,670 --> 00:13:03,120
launching lens and and that's

350
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:05,680
that would be probably expected on a

351
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:07,680
mini lab you know if it was a dark room

352
00:13:10,870 --> 00:13:09,279
print and you're using high quality and

353
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:10,880
larger lens you you shouldn't be getting

354
00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:12,320
this

355
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:14,320
okay next

356
00:13:17,509 --> 00:13:15,600
if we move on just to look at the

357
00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:17,519
photograph and consider the scene that

358
00:13:20,629 --> 00:13:18,880
it depicts

359
00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:20,639
it looks as though the camera is

360
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,560
pointing slightly upwards with the

361
00:13:25,990 --> 00:13:24,720
overcast sky filling the majority of the

362
00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:26,000
frame now i know when this was

363
00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:27,360
reproduced

364
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:29,040
in the newspaper

365
00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:31,040
the sky almost went pure white but

366
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:32,560
believe me there are clouds in there and

367
00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:34,079
if you darken the image down you can see

368
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:36,000
the shapes of cloud formation so it's an

369
00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:37,600
overcast sky

370
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:39,040
and as you can see there's a fence

371
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:40,480
running along the lower edge of the

372
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,360
frame

373
00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:43,519
and what appears to be a landscape

374
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:45,120
visible behind now there's been some

375
00:13:49,189 --> 00:13:47,600
debate about this but i i believe that

376
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:49,199
there's a landscape behind the fence in

377
00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:51,920
the lower section of the image

378
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:53,839
there's also an unexplained darkening of

379
00:13:57,990 --> 00:13:56,399
the image in the lower right hand corner

380
00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:58,000
so you can see the image is slightly

381
00:14:03,189 --> 00:14:00,160
darker in the lower right hand corner

382
00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:03,199
and i can't explain this um two types of

383
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,480
branches

384
00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:06,720
coming into the frame from the top

385
00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:09,040
and in the center of the image is this

386
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:11,440
unexplained unknown diamond shaped

387
00:14:15,910 --> 00:14:13,600
object behind which appears to be a

388
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:15,920
plane flying from right to left in the

389
00:14:18,949 --> 00:14:17,120
image

390
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:18,959
and i'd say from the field of view of

391
00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:21,120
the image it's likely that

392
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:22,560
sorry it's like the photograph was

393
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,320
produced not using a standard lens

394
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,800
unless this is a severe crop of the

395
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:29,279
original negative but using a lens with

396
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:32,160
a focal length of maybe 80 to 120 mil a

397
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:34,880
slight a mid telephoto

398
00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:35,920
lens

399
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:38,079
it could have been produced on an slr or

400
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:40,000
on a compact point-and-shoot camera with

401
00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:41,199
a zoom lens

402
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:42,480
and it's worth mentioning that

403
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:44,480
affordable reasonable quality compact

404
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:46,079
cameras with zoom lenses were very

405
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:48,880
popular in the early 90s

406
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:50,560
as far as i'm concerned the image shows

407
00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:52,959
no evidence of negative or print-based

408
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:55,440
manipulation and all visible signs

409
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:56,959
suggest that this is a genuine

410
00:15:00,150 --> 00:14:58,800
photograph of something in front of the

411
00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:00,160
camera

412
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:02,320
so just going on now if if that's okay

413
00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:04,000
vinny i was going to go on and talk

414
00:15:08,470 --> 00:15:06,399
about some of the key areas of the image

415
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:08,480
and starting with the fence

416
00:15:13,269 --> 00:15:10,079
at the bottom

417
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,279
and the fence uh appears to

418
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:15,279
appear to be a number of posts probably

419
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:16,720
wooden posts

420
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:18,959
uh along the bottom of the frame there's

421
00:15:25,269 --> 00:15:22,079
a thinner post that is possibly a metal

422
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:25,279
post like a metal stake towards the left

423
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:26,880
and here we can see two of what i'm

424
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:28,880
calling the wooden posts

425
00:15:34,629 --> 00:15:31,360
and what what we appear to be seeing

426
00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:34,639
here is a a single wire strung along

427
00:15:39,910 --> 00:15:37,440
close to the top of these posts and then

428
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:39,920
below that another wire which has got

429
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:41,440
kind of these

430
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:44,000
uh darker

431
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:45,440
regular dark

432
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:47,600
uh areas along it

433
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:50,399
and on the upper wire there are a couple

434
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:52,880
of dark areas that we can see point the

435
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:55,279
arrows pointing to these are possibly

436
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:57,040
something that's come become attached to

437
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:58,240
the fence

438
00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:59,120
um

439
00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:00,880
maybe it's wool

440
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:02,800
from sheep or maybe it's some grass

441
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:04,480
that's got caught there

442
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:05,839
obviously it's impossible to say but

443
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:06,560
there's

444
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:08,639
something there appears to be in this

445
00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:11,199
one here's something hanging down

446
00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:13,600
below it here

447
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:15,360
but that's quite blurred

448
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:16,720
and i'm not really seeing anything

449
00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:18,800
hanging down below that one

450
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:19,920
um

451
00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:23,199
let's just zoom out

452
00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:24,560
now this is the section of the

453
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:26,560
photograph that show is showing the

454
00:16:30,310 --> 00:16:28,480
second wire which i'm assuming to be

455
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:30,320
barbed wire fence

456
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:31,440
um

457
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:33,120
i went out and took the

458
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:35,920
aqua fence intentionally out of focus

459
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:38,800
and it as you as the image got

460
00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:40,959
increasingly out of focus

461
00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:42,800
the barbs disappeared and you just got

462
00:16:48,829 --> 00:16:46,480
these regular blobs of of a darker color

463
00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:48,839
a darker density a lot along the

464
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:51,120
wire and

465
00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:01,749
typical barbed wire since i looked into

466
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:03,440
this i looked on a few agricultural

467
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:06,160
websites and most barbed wire fence has

468
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:08,799
a common spacing of 10 centimeters

469
00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:11,520
between the barbs so this can

470
00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:14,160
produce or provide a scale at this point

471
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:16,079
in the photograph because we can measure

472
00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:18,480
the distance and count how many barbs

473
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:19,760
there are between the fence posts and

474
00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:21,520
that gives us a sense of scale in the

475
00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:22,640
image

476
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:23,760
uh

477
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:25,919
the fence posts and

478
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:28,480
wire appear blurred

479
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:31,600
and this doesn't look like movement blur

480
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:33,840
because the blur is is kind of fairly

481
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:35,120
equal

482
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:38,400
around both the lateral uh wires and the

483
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:40,559
fence posts and so i'm assuming this is

484
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:43,200
blur due to the fence being out of focus

485
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,799
in the foreground of the image

486
00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:48,240
now this is an area that there's been

487
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:50,080
quite a bit of debate online about so

488
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:51,840
i'm going to give you my reading of what

489
00:17:54,549 --> 00:17:52,720
we see

490
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:54,559
behind the fence

491
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:57,760
uh i believe that there's a ridge now

492
00:18:02,150 --> 00:17:59,520
the top two images that we're looking at

493
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:02,160
here i've just darkened slightly i've

494
00:18:07,510 --> 00:18:05,200
it's just a simple uh i'll just turn the

495
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:07,520
the density down on the image just to

496
00:18:11,909 --> 00:18:10,160
make it a little bit easier to see

497
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:11,919
and what i'm seeing here is you can see

498
00:18:15,909 --> 00:18:14,240
that there's there appears to be a line

499
00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:15,919
and i've drawn it in yellow on the top

500
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:16,799
image

501
00:18:23,110 --> 00:18:22,000
and then dropping down i'm coming to

502
00:18:25,669 --> 00:18:23,120
another peak

503
00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:25,679
behind this fence post and then kind of

504
00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:27,280
i'm not sure where it goes here there's

505
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:29,440
a line here but i'm not reading that as

506
00:18:32,549 --> 00:18:31,600
being a continuation of this although it

507
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:32,559
could be

508
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:35,200
and i'm reading this as a distant

509
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,480
landscape

510
00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,799
and it's lighter than what appears to be

511
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:40,799
a ridge here which is closer to the

512
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:42,880
camera and that would be due to

513
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:45,200
atmospheric dispersion uh

514
00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:47,039
sort of successive

515
00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:48,559
ranges of hills

516
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:51,120
the further they are away from you

517
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:53,840
will appear lighter

518
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:55,360
and

519
00:18:59,510 --> 00:18:58,400
down here this appears to be

520
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,520
uh

521
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:01,520
this dark area here i'm reading as a

522
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:04,080
ridge with little groups of trees on and

523
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:06,000
i've marked the ridge in brown and the

524
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:08,480
trees in green there and then this line

525
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:09,360
here

526
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:12,000
i've named it a field boundary

527
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:12,799
uh

528
00:19:16,630 --> 00:19:14,160
i don't know if that's what it is it's

529
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:16,640
impossible to say but to my eye if i

530
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,919
zoom in a bit

531
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:19,760
this line in the background appears a

532
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:21,840
lot sharper than whatever is hanging

533
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:23,520
down from this

534
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:25,919
dark area on the upper fence

535
00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:26,880
so

536
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,720
that appears sharper

537
00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:30,720
and this

538
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:32,320
peak here

539
00:19:37,750 --> 00:19:34,960
the border between an area of light

540
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:37,760
background and this area of darker

541
00:19:43,510 --> 00:19:40,640
background this line appears sharper to

542
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,520
my eye than the fence wire so i'm

543
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:45,919
reading that as uh

544
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:47,919
as you see in the top image here

545
00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:50,240
as being the horizon an undulating

546
00:19:55,909 --> 00:19:53,280
horizon with groups of trees a ridge in

547
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:55,919
the in the sort of slightly in front of

548
00:20:02,310 --> 00:19:59,120
the rear horizon with trees on it now

549
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:02,320
some people have suggested that this uh

550
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:06,240
this undulating darker area here could

551
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:08,720
be some kind of mesh attacks attached to

552
00:20:11,909 --> 00:20:09,840
the fence

553
00:20:13,270 --> 00:20:11,919
uh rabbit mesh

554
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:13,280
because it seems to be hanging from the

555
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:15,120
fence posts

556
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:17,200
that is possible but my

557
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:19,360
my instinct here and its only instinct

558
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:21,440
and interpretation is that

559
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:24,400
this background line appears sharper

560
00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:29,120
than the fence to my eye and certainly

561
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:31,520
here this line appears sharper than than

562
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,880
the blurred

563
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:34,400
thing hanging down there

564
00:20:38,789 --> 00:20:36,640
so my interpretation of this and i know

565
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:38,799
it's contentious for some people is that

566
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:40,400
what we're seeing through the fence is

567
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:42,640
the uh distant horizon and certainly

568
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:44,240
this definitely looks like a ridge with

569
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:46,559
trees on it and there appears to be a

570
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:50,240
bush much closer to the camera here

571
00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:51,600
so

572
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:54,640
i've just got a couple of uh i've tried

573
00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:57,840
adjusting the density and the contrast

574
00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:59,919
to to bring more detail but there's very

575
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:01,440
little detail

576
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:04,880
beyond what you can see here

577
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:06,159
so that's the

578
00:21:09,909 --> 00:21:08,960
that's the fence

579
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:09,919
um

580
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:11,919
now

581
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:14,080
the unidentified object in the center of

582
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:16,080
the frame is the thing that's in best

583
00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:17,520
focus in the image that's in the

584
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:19,200
sharpest focus

585
00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:20,080
so

586
00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:23,039
if we accept my analysis that the fence

587
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:24,720
is in the foreground and it's out of

588
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:27,600
focus and in the distance we have this

589
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:32,080
ridge here or we have the the background

590
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:34,640
uh horizon both of which are sharper

591
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:35,919
than the fence

592
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:37,039
then that

593
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:39,520
positions the unidentified objects

594
00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:40,799
somewhere between the fence in the

595
00:21:44,310 --> 00:21:41,840
background

596
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:44,320
rather than in front of the fence if it

597
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:45,760
was in front of the fence a number of

598
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:47,840
different interpretations

599
00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:50,400
might be made but i'm seeing it as being

600
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:54,320
some place behind the fence

601
00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:56,080
this would rule out the possibility of

602
00:21:59,430 --> 00:21:57,760
this being a small cut cutout attached

603
00:22:02,390 --> 00:21:59,440
to glass in front of the camera or

604
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:02,400
dangling on invisible thread

605
00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:04,799
closer to the camera

606
00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:06,960
if the object is some form of cutout or

607
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:08,960
a kite or a radio control plane or

608
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:11,120
whatever it might be it must be much

609
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:13,840
larger and somehow behind the fence

610
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:16,480
based on my reading

611
00:22:20,149 --> 00:22:18,000
it's worth noting that the image was

612
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,159
produced before digital compositing was

613
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:22,320
a possibility for the general public

614
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:25,440
adobe photoshop was launched in 1990 but

615
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:27,039
it wasn't until the introduction of

616
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:29,760
layers with version 3.0 in 1994 that you

617
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,480
could really get into compositing

618
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,960
it was pretty basic the original launch

619
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:36,720
of photoshop

620
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:38,720
before digital compositing the way you

621
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:40,320
might achieve this if you were wanting

622
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:43,360
to fake it would be to produce a print

623
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:44,640
of the background

624
00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:47,760
and then produce a print of

625
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:50,240
the unknown craft with the same kind of

626
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:52,240
viewpoint and the same lighting you then

627
00:22:57,750 --> 00:22:54,559
cut that out carefully attach it to the

628
00:22:59,990 --> 00:22:57,760
background image retouch around it to

629
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:00,000
try and disguise the join and then

630
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:02,240
re-photograph it onto a new piece of

631
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:03,360
film

632
00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:06,400
ideally with a higher iso so you've got

633
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:09,280
more grain

634
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,799
and

635
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:12,480
that would help further disguise the

636
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:13,360
join

637
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:15,200
and i'd say that at the time the image

638
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:17,360
was produced in 1990 this would be

639
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:19,520
pretty difficult and complex processes

640
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:20,799
the kind of thing you'd require

641
00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:23,120
professional skills and equipment to

642
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:24,320
achieve

643
00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:26,880
and so whilst this is possible i'd say

644
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:28,880
it's highly unlikely

645
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:31,200
and the grain across the object

646
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:33,760
is very even and continuous so there's

647
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:35,600
no evidence to my eye of this being a

648
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:38,320
composite image or a catal

649
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:41,360
just moving on to the plane if we can

650
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:42,559
um

651
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:44,960
so this blurred

652
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:46,320
object in the background which we're

653
00:23:53,430 --> 00:23:48,960
interpreting as a prey as a plane

654
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:53,440
um does match the um

655
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:55,360
the outline of a harrier although

656
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:56,960
obviously it's so blurred and distant

657
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:58,799
that it's hard to be sure

658
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:00,480
that's a that's a c harrier showing

659
00:24:05,669 --> 00:24:03,440
there so should see her frs one um the

660
00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:05,679
image looks more like a gr one which is

661
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:07,520
a slightly different type of harrier but

662
00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:09,039
it's essentially this

663
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:10,640
pretty much the same aircraft it's just

664
00:24:14,390 --> 00:24:12,799
the nose is slightly different

665
00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:14,400
right okay

666
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:16,840
thank you for that

667
00:24:22,149 --> 00:24:20,320
graeme the image is blurred

668
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:22,159
uh and

669
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:24,720
it could be focus blur but from where it

670
00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:26,559
is in the photograph

671
00:24:31,830 --> 00:24:29,440
uh and looking at how it appears here

672
00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:31,840
i'm i'm reading that as not being focus

673
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:33,760
blur it looks as though it's got lateral

674
00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:35,279
movement blur

675
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:40,149
so

676
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:46,390
oops where's my

677
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:52,789
so just let me get my notes

678
00:25:02,310 --> 00:24:59,510
now um

679
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:02,320
if we were to assume just for for

680
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:04,640
argument's sake that the unidentified

681
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:06,320
object was uh

682
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:07,919
in the same plane

683
00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:10,000
as the harrier then it's four and a

684
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,240
quarter harriers long

685
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:14,559
which i believe is about 60 meters i've

686
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:16,000
just lost my piece of paper i just need

687
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:19,200
to go get mine yeah no worries

688
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:22,000
we will be discussing the the harrier

689
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:23,919
or the air the jet fighter part a little

690
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:25,840
in a little bit more detail

691
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:28,080
uh in a little while so we're not just

692
00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:29,360
going to brush over it this is more

693
00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:32,559
about the the photo analysis yeah

694
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:33,600
um

695
00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:34,640
so

696
00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:35,760
that would

697
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:38,799
give a length of the object of 60 meters

698
00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:41,279
if it was in the same plane

699
00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:44,240
as the uh the harrier in the background

700
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:46,240
that's using a length of the harrier of

701
00:25:50,710 --> 00:25:48,720
14.4 meters which

702
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:50,720
depending on what harrier it is it might

703
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:52,559
be slightly different

704
00:25:55,909 --> 00:25:54,240
uh also

705
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:55,919
given that we have a scale in the

706
00:25:59,909 --> 00:25:58,320
foreground with the hardwired fence and

707
00:26:02,630 --> 00:25:59,919
we know the length of the harrier in the

708
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:02,640
background you can make some very very

709
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:05,279
approximate uh estimations of what the

710
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:07,360
size of this object might be if it is

711
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:08,960
behind the fence

712
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,400
and my calculations are that

713
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,640
if it was a third of the way between the

714
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:16,480
fence and the harrier in the background

715
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:18,480
it would be 20 meters long

716
00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:20,400
and if it was halfway between the fence

717
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:21,440
and the harrier in the background it

718
00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:25,200
would be approximately 30 meters long

719
00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:27,360
okay so i'm sure we'll come back to talk

720
00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:29,360
about the harrier and so on later but

721
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:32,159
that that was uh

722
00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:34,720
that was my analysis of it now

723
00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:36,480
some people some commentators have

724
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:38,080
suggested that the image is actually a

725
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:40,559
reflection in a lake and that we should

726
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,559
invert it like this

727
00:26:45,669 --> 00:26:44,640
to view it

728
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:45,679
now

729
00:26:51,350 --> 00:26:49,120
whilst this is a possible explanation um

730
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:51,360
i'm not ruling it out i feel that

731
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:52,960
there's some serious difficulties with

732
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:56,000
the reading of the image in this way

733
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:58,960
so if this was an inversion and and the

734
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:00,080
um

735
00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:03,039
this diamond shape object was actually a

736
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:05,520
triangular piece of wood or a triangular

737
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:07,919
rock protruding through the surface

738
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:09,279
of a

739
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:11,279
lake and what we should be seeing is a

740
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:14,080
mirror image uh in the water

741
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:17,520
and the this is an inverted uh

742
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,720
enlargement of of the uh unidentified

743
00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:22,559
object and it's not a mirror image there

744
00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:24,960
are differences there's a a kind of a

745
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:26,799
raised area here which isn't married

746
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:28,080
here and there are differences in the

747
00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:30,799
density and i'm not seeing that as a

748
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:34,080
pure mirrored image

749
00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:37,120
and in this image i've darkened the

750
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:38,640
image so that we can see the clouds

751
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:40,000
better

752
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:43,200
and the mirror's stillness with not a

753
00:27:47,669 --> 00:27:45,440
single ripple the lack of any surface

754
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:47,679
debris any leaves any twigs any bubbles

755
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:49,520
or anything else on the surface

756
00:27:53,909 --> 00:27:51,440
while it's not impossible i'd suggest is

757
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:53,919
highly unlikely

758
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:57,120
and unless the lake was on high ground

759
00:28:03,029 --> 00:27:59,039
then we should be seeing a reflection of

760
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:03,039
the landscape beyond the lake uh

761
00:28:07,269 --> 00:28:05,440
here so if this was a something some

762
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:07,279
people suggested that it might be a

763
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:08,960
specific lock

764
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:11,120
uh in a valley bottom well if this lake

765
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:12,880
was in a valley bottom and this was a

766
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:14,960
fence on the far side of it then we

767
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:16,880
should be seeing a landscape the other

768
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:19,840
side of the valley reflected here so uh

769
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,640
i'm not convinced by that

770
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:25,039
i also feel it's unlikely that a single

771
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:28,640
viewpoint could produce this this image

772
00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:30,960
i mean if you zoom in on on that it may

773
00:28:34,789 --> 00:28:33,520
maybe you could see that as a reflection

774
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:34,799
uh and

775
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:36,640
but the whole image

776
00:28:41,190 --> 00:28:39,039
i'm not convinced by and i kind of tried

777
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:41,200
to create an image which felt more

778
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:42,799
natural

779
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:45,840
and by adding a perspective to the uh

780
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:48,000
fence area of the image the top area and

781
00:28:52,149 --> 00:28:49,760
adding a different perspective to these

782
00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:52,159
branches i think to my eye that looks

783
00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:53,760
more believable

784
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:56,559
but that doesn't feel right in terms of

785
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:58,880
its perspective and its depth

786
00:29:07,190 --> 00:28:59,760
so

787
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:07,200
it's actually

788
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:09,600
um it should be viewed this way up but

789
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:11,520
we're still looking at

790
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:14,080
a reflection in a lake and if i was to

791
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:17,919
zoom in and we would just look at that

792
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:24,630
some wood or a rock sticking out from a

793
00:29:29,669 --> 00:29:26,399
lake surface and someone suggested that

794
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:29,679
this might be a rowboat with a person in

795
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:31,840
it but if that was the case this is a

796
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:34,399
massive rock protruding from the lake

797
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:35,760
given the scale

798
00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:38,799
uh the relative scale but i can kind of

799
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:41,440
almost see that as a lake

800
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:43,600
but then when you introduce the fence in

801
00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:45,200
the bottom it just

802
00:29:49,669 --> 00:29:47,679
the perspective again falls apart

803
00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:49,679
so just in uh

804
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:50,720
kind of

805
00:29:55,669 --> 00:29:53,520
concluding i feel that if we just look

806
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:55,679
at the photograph as an image

807
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:57,679
aside from the difficulty of explaining

808
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:59,279
what this thing in the middle of it

809
00:30:02,789 --> 00:30:00,559
might be

810
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:02,799
the photograph to my eyes stands as a

811
00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:05,440
convincing image of a highland landscape

812
00:30:09,269 --> 00:30:07,760
and all of the alternative explanations

813
00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:09,279
that i've read

814
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:11,600
seem to be attempts to explain the

815
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:13,840
presence of this unidentified object in

816
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:16,320
the center of the image but they create

817
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:18,320
other problems with the rest of the

818
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:19,440
image

819
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:22,000
to my eye to my mind the most convincing

820
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:23,919
explanation is that there is something

821
00:30:28,149 --> 00:30:26,000
flying in the sky above this island

822
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:28,159
landscape and that this was captured

823
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:29,919
directly on film by our unknown

824
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:32,080
photographer what the object is i can't

825
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:34,480
say but i think the image itself feels

826
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:36,880
very very genuine so that's the end of

827
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:41,200
my bit many fantastic thank you so much

828
00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:42,720
yeah i think that covers everything and

829
00:30:46,389 --> 00:30:44,240
now obviously you're talking about the

830
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:46,399
background and landscaping that you you

831
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:48,240
think you can see there which would lead

832
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:50,080
me now into what giles wanted to talk

833
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:51,360
about but he's been having some

834
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:54,000
connection issues so what we'll do now

835
00:30:57,909 --> 00:30:56,159
if it's okay with graham is we can just

836
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:57,919
show a few images of the harriet graham

837
00:31:02,310 --> 00:30:59,440
if you're happy to talk about it yeah

838
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,320
sure oh yeah well

839
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:04,559
there's giles we'll bring charles in

840
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:06,240
giles would just actually should we do

841
00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:07,840
giles while he's still got a connection

842
00:31:15,269 --> 00:31:13,430
no no it happens it happens for you

843
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:15,279
yeah so without me

844
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:17,279
i'll do my best i'll do my best but you

845
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:19,360
you are breaking up quite a bit so can

846
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:22,399
you hear me now i can hear you fine yet

847
00:31:27,509 --> 00:31:26,320
okay um so this is just a a local

848
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:27,519
terrain

849
00:31:30,789 --> 00:31:28,559
map

850
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:30,799
um the

851
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:33,279
if you can see the small um

852
00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:36,320
blue cross that is

853
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:38,240
or was the location of the

854
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:39,840
reconstruction

855
00:31:43,509 --> 00:31:41,679
photo the

856
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:43,519
i guess we could call it the nick pope

857
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:45,200
one that we've all seen

858
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:48,480
um for the last whatever 15 years or so

859
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,440
so i mean that's literally 400 meters

860
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:54,000
from calvin's very close 5-10 minute

861
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:55,279
walk

862
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:56,880
um the

863
00:32:01,909 --> 00:31:59,360
red cross that you can see slightly to

864
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:01,919
the south west

865
00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:05,360
is called strewn point now that's a

866
00:32:10,950 --> 00:32:08,240
40 45 minute walk

867
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:10,960
from calvin it's a it's had a lot higher

868
00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:13,360
elevation

869
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:16,320
then the other side um there's a there's

870
00:32:20,710 --> 00:32:19,440
also a small um there's a green

871
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:20,720
squared area

872
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:23,279
and that's that's a wood

873
00:32:28,870 --> 00:32:26,080
to the north called clones wood which is

874
00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:28,880
about one and a half miles

875
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:32,000
uh from calvin so that's a was another

876
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:33,440
potential

877
00:32:37,029 --> 00:32:35,600
area that we looked at so

878
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:37,039
that's the sort of area we've we've

879
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:38,880
looked at we've obviously considered

880
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:39,679
that

881
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:41,600
you know these guys were walking in the

882
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:42,880
evening

883
00:32:47,029 --> 00:32:44,399
how many miles would they have been able

884
00:32:48,549 --> 00:32:47,039
to to get from calvin if they parked in

885
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:48,559
calvin

886
00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:49,519
um

887
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:52,000
you know before it got dark so

888
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:53,840
um i don't know if there's another image

889
00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:55,519
in if you can still hear me

890
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:57,360
yep the next one i've got

891
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:58,480
yeah

892
00:33:01,990 --> 00:32:59,760
he says

893
00:33:03,269 --> 00:33:02,000
there we go here's the uh the nick pope

894
00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:03,279
recreation

895
00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:05,519
yeah so that that's

896
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:08,000
what you see in front of you is uh glenn

897
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:12,880
gary effectively um so this was taken uh

898
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:15,279
literally i said five ten minutes walk

899
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:18,799
north of calvin calvin is actually at

900
00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:22,000
the base of the glen in front of you

901
00:33:27,509 --> 00:33:25,279
completely out of sight um

902
00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:27,519
so we made that little film isn't it

903
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:29,440
that's right exactly yeah yeah so this

904
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:30,799
is this is

905
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:32,159
and this was

906
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:34,480
taken from the

907
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:36,240
the wade military road the general

908
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:38,480
wade's military road which was basically

909
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:40,080
the first road through the scottish

910
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:43,600
highlands um built in the 1730s i think

911
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:46,559
used to take troops up to fort georgia

912
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:48,880
uh near inverness so so this is an

913
00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:51,600
elevation of about 800 feet

914
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:54,320
what you can see across from there

915
00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:58,080
is is slightly you can see a um

916
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:00,240
a snowy mountain to the right that's

917
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:03,279
shahallian one of the local monroes

918
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:06,640
that's glenn erichty behind the first

919
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:09,679
hill that you see the sloping hill

920
00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:11,599
which takes you up to stuart point i

921
00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:13,200
don't know if you can go on to the next

922
00:34:16,069 --> 00:34:14,240
one

923
00:34:18,629 --> 00:34:16,079
vinnie

924
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:18,639
so so that's it so that sloping

925
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:20,960
hill that's that little cops of trees at

926
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:22,320
the top

927
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:24,320
uh that's strewn point so this is the

928
00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:26,159
this is the military road this i said

929
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:27,440
this is the first road through the

930
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:29,440
highlands and that's this is where the

931
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:32,320
reconstruction photo was taken so as you

932
00:34:36,069 --> 00:34:34,399
can see the there's

933
00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:36,079
uh quite a lot of difference between the

934
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:38,800
actual image and the reconstruction

935
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:41,440
albeit the the the craft and the plane

936
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:43,359
are very very similar but

937
00:34:46,950 --> 00:34:44,320
the

938
00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:46,960
reconstruction has a clear background

939
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:48,879
but no real

940
00:34:52,869 --> 00:34:51,040
major foreground where

941
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:52,879
the obviously the real image has a you

942
00:34:57,430 --> 00:34:54,879
know a

943
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:57,440
clear foreground of a fencing

944
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:03,190
did you want to move on vinnie if you

945
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:04,640
can still hear me

946
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:06,480
yeah so this is just just an idea of

947
00:35:09,430 --> 00:35:08,000
some of the fencing

948
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:09,440
to the north

949
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:11,119
um

950
00:35:14,390 --> 00:35:12,560
it's

951
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:14,400
you can probably see the post very close

952
00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:16,240
together this was this is probably only

953
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:18,320
one of a couple of examples of fencing

954
00:35:22,790 --> 00:35:21,760
to the north which might explain why

955
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:22,800
uh

956
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:23,920
can we call it nick pope's

957
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:26,240
reconstruction why why there were why

958
00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:27,760
there weren't any

959
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:29,839
fencing there isn't any fencing in the

960
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,760
reconstruction photo at all maybe

961
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:33,599
because he couldn't find any because you

962
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:35,280
know this there's this sort of remnants

963
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:36,160
of

964
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:37,200
fencing

965
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:39,040
uh this you know this isn't uncommon you

966
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:41,680
know you'd expect fencing

967
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:44,880
um from 1990 to still be around and this

968
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:46,400
particular fencing could well be over

969
00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:48,720
100 years old and you don't you don't

970
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:50,000
tend to

971
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:53,920
can see in the foreground you put new

972
00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:55,920
fencing in front of the old fencing you

973
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:58,079
know it's it's too cost it's too costly

974
00:36:03,190 --> 00:36:00,720
to take old fencing away so

975
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:03,200
um that's why we were quite hopeful of

976
00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:04,320
of

977
00:36:10,310 --> 00:36:06,720
trying to find a location with the

978
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:10,320
fencing in the in the real image

979
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:11,760
uh did you want to move on vinnie to the

980
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:14,079
next one yeah so again that's

981
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:16,320
that's looking south

982
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,119
uh

983
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:19,440
to to where very close to where the

984
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:21,760
reconstruction image has the craft in

985
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:23,200
the sky and as you can see it's quite a

986
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:24,960
lot lower down

987
00:36:29,829 --> 00:36:28,160
um as i mean as andrew pointed out the

988
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:29,839
there is a background but it's very low

989
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:31,440
in the image which suggests that the

990
00:36:35,430 --> 00:36:33,680
photo is probably taking a a reasonably

991
00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:35,440
high elevation so

992
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:37,040
as i said this is very very close to

993
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:38,640
calvin so it's just to give you give you

994
00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:40,560
all an idea of scale

995
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:42,880
um you know you have a lot you can you

996
00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:44,400
can see a lot of

997
00:36:49,349 --> 00:36:46,800
granite stone in in front of you which

998
00:36:51,109 --> 00:36:49,359
is i said was used to build the the

999
00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:51,119
first road through scotland a lot of it

1000
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:53,520
is still there so that's the original

1001
00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:55,599
road from so you're looking at you know

1002
00:36:59,829 --> 00:36:57,520
nearly 300 years of history in front of

1003
00:37:03,190 --> 00:36:59,839
you very little changes so

1004
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:03,200
posts from 32 years ago you know are

1005
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:06,800
invariably will probably be still there

1006
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:09,359
if you want to go to the next one vinnie

1007
00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:11,200
right again so this is clunes wood that

1008
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:12,240
was the

1009
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:13,200
sort of

1010
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:16,240
shaded green area in that terrain

1011
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:18,320
picture that we saw at the beginning so

1012
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:20,560
this is the this is the main

1013
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:22,720
road through scotland this is the

1014
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:24,400
general wade road

1015
00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:26,160
um

1016
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:27,440
i've sort of looked at this as a

1017
00:37:31,349 --> 00:37:29,839
possibility

1018
00:37:33,430 --> 00:37:31,359
um

1019
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:33,440
because apparently they they obviously

1020
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:36,240
took the picture they they sort of hid

1021
00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:38,800
in a wood uh because they got a bit

1022
00:37:43,349 --> 00:37:41,599
scared of what was in front of them

1023
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:43,359
so i looked at that because this is one

1024
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:46,160
of only a few wooded areas close to

1025
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:48,240
calvin and so this is slightly to the

1026
00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:49,200
north

1027
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:56,000
if you could go on again vinnie

1028
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:58,720
so this is the posts that

1029
00:38:02,069 --> 00:38:00,160
are on the edge of that wood you've just

1030
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:02,079
seen cleans wood

1031
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:04,160
and i think you can see from that they

1032
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:06,480
they don't really match what we have on

1033
00:38:10,470 --> 00:38:08,880
the real image they're a lot higher than

1034
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:10,480
the real image

1035
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:12,320
um i think what we're dealing with in

1036
00:38:18,390 --> 00:38:15,280
the real image is is sheep fencing

1037
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:18,400
um because i see it all the time

1038
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:19,839
normally on lower ground there is

1039
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:22,720
another image finney if you can go on so

1040
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:24,079
that's from the inside of the wood

1041
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:27,200
looking out to give you that perspective

1042
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:29,040
and as you can see it doesn't really

1043
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:30,880
match and there's there's very little of

1044
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:33,440
that fencing in that wood

1045
00:38:37,109 --> 00:38:34,960
there's a little bit that goes further

1046
00:38:39,670 --> 00:38:37,119
up and that's it so

1047
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:39,680
i think i think i could discount

1048
00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:41,920
that from our

1049
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:44,079
sort of inquiries when we were looking

1050
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:46,480
at potential locations

1051
00:38:50,710 --> 00:38:48,400
um did you want to go on again vinnie to

1052
00:38:53,990 --> 00:38:50,720
the next one

1053
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:54,000
right so so now we're up at um

1054
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:56,560
we're across the glen so now we're up at

1055
00:38:59,829 --> 00:38:57,760
strewn point

1056
00:39:02,310 --> 00:38:59,839
which is probably some of the images

1057
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:02,320
you've seen recently

1058
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:04,880
um so that's looking

1059
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:06,160
to south

1060
00:39:09,589 --> 00:39:07,440
uh

1061
00:39:11,589 --> 00:39:09,599
and

1062
00:39:14,310 --> 00:39:11,599
if you've got you've got a peak if you

1063
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:14,320
go if you're going to the next one

1064
00:39:18,310 --> 00:39:16,800
vinnie so that peak is is just an

1065
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:18,320
enlargement of that one you've just seen

1066
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:21,040
so that is um

1067
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:22,960
farragon hill

1068
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:25,680
which is about i think seven or eight

1069
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:28,960
miles in the distance i think uh someone

1070
00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:31,359
did a very sort of clever i think a

1071
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:33,040
fellow called gordon

1072
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:36,000
uh did a little uh online

1073
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:39,119
demo and thought it might be the

1074
00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:40,720
the object

1075
00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:43,760
sort of reflected maybe uh that peak

1076
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:46,800
appearing above cloud cover so

1077
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:48,400
um

1078
00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:49,920
so that's that's in the distance but i

1079
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:51,280
think as you can see from that probably

1080
00:39:54,829 --> 00:39:53,119
doesn't really match the

1081
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:54,839
the shape of the

1082
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:58,240
object when you zoom in

1083
00:40:01,589 --> 00:39:59,839
did you want to go on again

1084
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:01,599
oh yeah yeah like you see it doesn't

1085
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:03,440
really match the

1086
00:40:08,829 --> 00:40:05,119
so this is another another one of the

1087
00:40:12,790 --> 00:40:08,839
peaks you can see from from up at

1088
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:12,800
um strewn point uh this

1089
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:15,760
is let me get this right ben vracky

1090
00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:18,319
so this is this is the peak above

1091
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:19,680
pit lockery

1092
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:21,040
so

1093
00:40:24,309 --> 00:40:22,640
the guys came from pitt lockwood came

1094
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:24,319
from that direction so you can sort of

1095
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:28,000
see how close it is it's a 11 mile drive

1096
00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:29,760
straight up the a9

1097
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:32,560
it would have taken them potentially

1098
00:40:37,109 --> 00:40:35,119
20 minutes from leaving pit lockery to

1099
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:37,119
be on the walk you know it could be 20

1100
00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:40,240
25 minutes so not in any way

1101
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:42,400
difficult it's just it's an easy road

1102
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:44,480
it's an easy drive and it's it's a

1103
00:40:47,349 --> 00:40:46,319
really great walk as you can see the

1104
00:40:49,109 --> 00:40:47,359
views are

1105
00:40:52,069 --> 00:40:49,119
really nice so

1106
00:40:55,349 --> 00:40:52,079
um did you want to go on to the next one

1107
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:55,359
so that's that's shahallian i think uh

1108
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:56,480
david

1109
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,000
struggled to the top didn't you earlier

1110
00:41:02,309 --> 00:41:00,560
in the year david is that right

1111
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:02,319
yeah my feet are still

1112
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:04,560
still recovering

1113
00:41:10,870 --> 00:41:08,160
so this is one of our local monroes um

1114
00:41:13,349 --> 00:41:10,880
it's three and a half thousand feet high

1115
00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:13,359
um again some people think maybe thought

1116
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:15,520
that that was the the peak

1117
00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:17,920
appearing through the clouds

1118
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:19,440
um i think

1119
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:21,440
i think he's about seven miles away is

1120
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,800
that right matthew i think you worked it

1121
00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:24,800
out the other day is that right

1122
00:41:27,829 --> 00:41:26,640
nine i think it was close nine yeah

1123
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:27,839
that's right i think some of the others

1124
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:29,200
are seven yeah you're right i think it's

1125
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:30,800
nine miles away so

1126
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:33,599
but i've zoomed in so without that photo

1127
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:35,920
from the top i mean this is this is one

1128
00:41:39,109 --> 00:41:37,280
o'clock in the afternoon i think i took

1129
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:39,119
this and i've zoomed in so

1130
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:42,000
you know it's it's still quite blurry

1131
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:43,280
you know even when you zoom it's not

1132
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:44,800
that it's not that strong

1133
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:47,200
hey yeah giles can i just can i just ask

1134
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:48,880
a question in the in the comments

1135
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:50,400
they're talking about lock ericty which

1136
00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:52,640
is a reservoir or a man-made lock near

1137
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:54,720
you yeah no it's not it's quite close

1138
00:41:58,150 --> 00:41:56,560
you can't see it from there can you

1139
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:58,160
because it's up the glen around the

1140
00:42:01,589 --> 00:42:00,160
corner is that right yeah it's quite a

1141
00:42:04,309 --> 00:42:01,599
bit um

1142
00:42:05,910 --> 00:42:04,319
to west from yeah from from steering

1143
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:05,920
point i mean if you i mean if if we're

1144
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:07,440
taking that they

1145
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:09,520
you know that they parked in

1146
00:42:13,190 --> 00:42:11,440
calvin and walk from calvin it would

1147
00:42:15,510 --> 00:42:13,200
probably take two and a half hours three

1148
00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:15,520
hours to walk to to lock eric you

1149
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:17,440
wouldn't you wouldn't park in calvin you

1150
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:19,760
would you could drive to to trinifor

1151
00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:21,920
which is a little hamlet nearby and then

1152
00:42:27,030 --> 00:42:23,119
you would walk

1153
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:27,040
so you can't see it from that point can

1154
00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:28,800
you it's not

1155
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:31,280
you you cannot see it from from any any

1156
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:34,240
point and there is a road um that links

1157
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:35,680
up to

1158
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:37,520
uh down the cardiac which is a bit to

1159
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:39,680
the to the northwest

1160
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:41,119
um where you can see it because you're

1161
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:42,319
above it but

1162
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:44,480
um your charity is quite a high

1163
00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:46,240
elevation it's a

1164
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:47,920
it's a damned lock it's it's actually a

1165
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:50,960
man man-made lock it was um constructed

1166
00:42:56,829 --> 00:42:52,960
at the end of the second world war so

1167
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:58,630
okay

1168
00:43:00,790 --> 00:42:59,440
yeah

1169
00:43:03,109 --> 00:43:00,800
i'll ask a question after i think this

1170
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:03,119
is the last one isn't it yeah so this is

1171
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,480
this is the other monroe that you can

1172
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:06,240
see from the top

1173
00:43:11,589 --> 00:43:08,720
so that's khan leah um so that will be

1174
00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:11,599
due east from the top so

1175
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:13,760
again it's i don't think you could

1176
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:16,640
probably confuse it for

1177
00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:18,000
for anything

1178
00:43:23,109 --> 00:43:20,560
um certainly as clear as we have

1179
00:43:24,870 --> 00:43:23,119
um following andrew's analysis of the

1180
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:24,880
pictures and again in you know bear in

1181
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:26,400
mind this was

1182
00:43:31,109 --> 00:43:29,119
this was the evening um and i've zoomed

1183
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:31,119
in again on this picture so i think we

1184
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:34,319
well the point of seeing these um

1185
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,880
prominent peaks is that i think we could

1186
00:43:40,470 --> 00:43:38,880
try and rule them out because

1187
00:43:42,550 --> 00:43:40,480
honestly i don't think you would have

1188
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:42,560
the clarity you have

1189
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:43,920
um

1190
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:45,920
with the image that we do have of the

1191
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:47,920
object so

1192
00:43:51,990 --> 00:43:50,400
excellent no no that was really good and

1193
00:43:53,990 --> 00:43:52,000
and just to reiterate we weren't trying

1194
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:54,000
to show where the spot was that we think

1195
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:55,440
we're trying to rule out the spot with

1196
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:57,680
those and i've got a question um how

1197
00:44:02,069 --> 00:44:00,400
many locks or bodies of water in the

1198
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:02,079
rough area

1199
00:44:06,069 --> 00:44:03,040
have

1200
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:06,079
sheep fence close to them or any kind of

1201
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:09,280
similar kind of fencing

1202
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:11,280
well hardly any because

1203
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:14,000
the the locks if you have sheep lock

1204
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:16,880
side the lock acts as a

1205
00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:18,000
natural

1206
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:19,760
barrier you know

1207
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:22,079
sheep can swim but they don't tend to

1208
00:44:26,950 --> 00:44:24,560
swim unless they really have to so you

1209
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:26,960
don't you know you don't need

1210
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:29,119
fencing along the side of

1211
00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:30,720
locks the other thing is a lot of these

1212
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:32,720
locks are a high elevation

1213
00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:35,760
and fencing would simply um

1214
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:38,319
disappear very quickly you know when you

1215
00:44:43,510 --> 00:44:40,720
look at some of the winters that we have

1216
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:43,520
um traditionally on higher ground which

1217
00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:45,200
is where we are and said we're in the

1218
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:47,359
kangaroos

1219
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:49,280
you would have

1220
00:44:54,790 --> 00:44:50,800
stone

1221
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:54,800
more permanent you could guarantee your

1222
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,319
sheep

1223
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:58,160
wouldn't escape

1224
00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,079
so you you tend to have that type of

1225
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:02,400
fencing on on quite

1226
00:45:08,069 --> 00:45:05,760
low ground um and that's why

1227
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:08,079
strewn points quite an exception

1228
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:10,400
you don't tend to have a lot of that

1229
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:12,960
fencing that high up that string point

1230
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:14,880
where those photos were taken is at an

1231
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:17,280
elevation of about 1

1232
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:18,800
400 feet

1233
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:20,720
and there's very little of that type of

1234
00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:22,960
fencing up there i think maybe it was up

1235
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:24,800
there because there isn't there wasn't a

1236
00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:25,680
lot of

1237
00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:27,359
granite available to

1238
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:29,680
to build stone walling there is some

1239
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:31,440
stonewalling up there but it was used

1240
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:34,800
elsewhere i think so that might explain

1241
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:36,720
why they decided to put fencing up there

1242
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:38,640
so

1243
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:40,319
excellent that's great

1244
00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:42,880
um so i'm going to move on to

1245
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:45,680
our good friend strafe wilson um

1246
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:47,680
strafe actually visited calvin yesterday

1247
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:49,440
took a load of photographs and videos

1248
00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:51,440
and sent them to me strafe's been

1249
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:53,680
looking into carving for about 15 years

1250
00:45:58,790 --> 00:45:56,640
he's visited the area about seven times

1251
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:58,800
both sides of the valley

1252
00:46:02,710 --> 00:46:00,880
and he agrees that he thinks the spot is

1253
00:46:04,309 --> 00:46:02,720
quite close to strewn point so what i've

1254
00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:04,319
done is i've popped together all his

1255
00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:06,640
photos and videos into a three and a

1256
00:46:11,829 --> 00:46:09,839
half minute small edit so if i play that

1257
00:46:13,430 --> 00:46:11,839
now we can talk about it

1258
00:46:14,790 --> 00:46:13,440
as we're watching it if you want i can

1259
00:46:17,589 --> 00:46:14,800
pause it but

1260
00:46:19,589 --> 00:46:17,599
i'll bring that up now bear with me

1261
00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:19,599
so that's there

1262
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:25,030
so there's strafe and i believe that's

1263
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:31,990
yeah there you see that you can see see

1264
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:34,960
the wall there did you see it yeah did i

1265
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:39,030
so we've got

1266
00:46:51,030 --> 00:46:47,990
i mean do we think if the if

1267
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:51,040
it was taken across a body of water

1268
00:46:54,790 --> 00:46:52,880
then it should never have been reported

1269
00:46:56,069 --> 00:46:54,800
as calvin because they're all so far

1270
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:56,079
away and they maybe it would have been

1271
00:46:59,829 --> 00:46:57,760
called something else the actual case

1272
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:59,839
would have been named something else

1273
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:00,800
yeah

1274
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:02,560
these images jump out

1275
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:05,200
yeah yeah you can't walk to a lock from

1276
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:06,800
from calvin

1277
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:08,240
you know in under

1278
00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:10,640
a couple of hours so it's just it's just

1279
00:47:22,829 --> 00:47:18,950
so that what you're looking at they said

1280
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:22,839
that strewn point so that's 1 400 feet

1281
00:47:33,589 --> 00:47:32,470
and we feel that this would match with

1282
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:33,599
the

1283
00:47:39,990 --> 00:47:36,720
andrew saw as well

1284
00:47:43,589 --> 00:47:40,000
of of like the hills that

1285
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:43,599
you know could be behind the cloud

1286
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:45,440
well i think i think that's that's where

1287
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:47,920
we continue our investigation is to try

1288
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:49,920
and use some of the

1289
00:47:53,910 --> 00:47:51,359
the more

1290
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:53,920
um some of the data regarding the

1291
00:47:57,430 --> 00:47:55,440
the background

1292
00:47:59,670 --> 00:47:57,440
to try and align that with

1293
00:48:00,710 --> 00:47:59,680
some of the the hills in the background

1294
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:00,720
because

1295
00:48:05,750 --> 00:48:02,800
as was pointed out it's hard to tell

1296
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:05,760
what is potentially hanging from

1297
00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:07,760
fencing and what is the background but i

1298
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:09,119
think with

1299
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:14,950
yeah this this to my eye is looking very

1300
00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:16,800
promising i have to say

1301
00:48:25,990 --> 00:48:24,230
i'm moving my cursor but with that peak

1302
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:26,000
on the background in the background with

1303
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:28,079
the the ridge in front of the treeline

1304
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:30,480
ridge in front of it it's it's is

1305
00:48:34,630 --> 00:48:32,319
looking quite promising for how i'm

1306
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:34,640
reading the background behind the fence

1307
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:37,040
yeah sure and if you look at this angle

1308
00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:39,680
say this was a similar spot and you

1309
00:48:43,349 --> 00:48:42,079
you know the witness testimony to to

1310
00:48:45,510 --> 00:48:43,359
craig and the mod was that they were

1311
00:48:48,309 --> 00:48:45,520
crouched down or lying down which would

1312
00:48:50,309 --> 00:48:48,319
change the angle of the photograph to to

1313
00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:50,319
remove some of that that background so

1314
00:48:53,430 --> 00:48:52,480
it almost does fit now there are people

1315
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:53,440
saying

1316
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:55,440
uh why would you trust calvin if the

1317
00:48:58,950 --> 00:48:57,680
location if and the location if it's a

1318
00:49:00,549 --> 00:48:58,960
hoax well

1319
00:49:03,030 --> 00:49:00,559
david you want to talk about that why we

1320
00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:03,040
trust or seem to believe

1321
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:05,359
the witnesses and the statements not

1322
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:07,359
that we're saying we do 100 but why

1323
00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:08,960
would we

1324
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:10,480
i think you know what

1325
00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:11,520
yeah i don't know what you're trying to

1326
00:49:14,309 --> 00:49:12,960
ask but i don't know how to answer it

1327
00:49:16,870 --> 00:49:14,319
because it seems that the argument

1328
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:16,880
changes every time you sort of

1329
00:49:19,910 --> 00:49:18,400
you make a break so it's like well yeah

1330
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:19,920
we found what we think is the location

1331
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:22,160
right well that can't must be something

1332
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:23,839
wrong with it so that the location must

1333
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:26,160
be wrong well all we can say is that the

1334
00:49:29,829 --> 00:49:28,240
very one of the very earliest

1335
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:29,839
contemporaneous documents in the

1336
00:49:34,549 --> 00:49:32,160
ministry of defense file from about a

1337
00:49:35,910 --> 00:49:34,559
few weeks afterwards or maybe less says

1338
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:35,920
very clearly

1339
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:37,440
it was at calvin

1340
00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:39,680
and the the briefing that was made that

1341
00:49:43,990 --> 00:49:41,599
was put together by owen hart up on the

1342
00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:44,000
11th of september says very specifically

1343
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:46,240
that it was it was taken at kelvin by

1344
00:49:50,150 --> 00:49:48,480
two guys who were up on the hills

1345
00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:50,160
so that you know that could be wrong

1346
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:51,680
they could have lied about it but you

1347
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:53,040
know

1348
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:55,200
that isn't for me to disprove it's for

1349
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:57,119
whoever is making the allegation to

1350
00:50:01,190 --> 00:49:59,839
prove that's all i can say and i think

1351
00:50:03,270 --> 00:50:01,200
if you add in what andrew was saying

1352
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:03,280
about it would take an awful lot to

1353
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:05,119
to put something together like that and

1354
00:50:08,950 --> 00:50:06,720
andrew maybe we should mention what we

1355
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:08,960
we spoke about before about

1356
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:10,960
if it was hoaxed

1357
00:50:14,950 --> 00:50:12,960
it would be interesting to know if the

1358
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:14,960
the six images that were sent to the mod

1359
00:50:18,309 --> 00:50:16,640
were on the same

1360
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:18,319
same reel because then you've got a hoax

1361
00:50:23,510 --> 00:50:21,359
six in a row you can't just be

1362
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:23,520
i should also add i should also add that

1363
00:50:26,230 --> 00:50:24,480
i just mentioned the actual

1364
00:50:28,069 --> 00:50:26,240
contemporaneous documents and the

1365
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:28,079
documents at the time should be regarded

1366
00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:29,760
as probably the most reliable things of

1367
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:31,680
all but if you think about um

1368
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:34,480
craig's very detailed account of what

1369
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,640
they told him what they told him about

1370
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:38,880
where they park where they went is also

1371
00:50:42,950 --> 00:50:40,640
it's it's consistent with what the

1372
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:42,960
contemporaneous document said which

1373
00:50:47,829 --> 00:50:45,520
craig had never seen until i provided

1374
00:50:50,309 --> 00:50:47,839
him with copies so that to me is pretty

1375
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:50,319
good evidence

1376
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:52,000
yeah i mean the the point vinnie that we

1377
00:50:56,549 --> 00:50:54,800
were discussing before so there's a

1378
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:56,559
number david will know the details but

1379
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:59,200
there's a a number of uh contemporaneous

1380
00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:01,040
reports that say there were six images

1381
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:02,160
in total

1382
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:04,800
uh and what would be great to know from

1383
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:06,480
someone at the daily record or someone

1384
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:08,880
who handled those negatives

1385
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:11,040
is are they on a single strip of film or

1386
00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:14,000
on two strips of film rather than being

1387
00:51:18,630 --> 00:51:16,319
individual images and are the frame

1388
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:18,640
numbers consistent because if you were

1389
00:51:23,670 --> 00:51:20,880
to try and fake this in one of the ways

1390
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:23,680
that's been suggested uh cut out closer

1391
00:51:27,589 --> 00:51:24,960
to the camera

1392
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:27,599
hanging on threads uh or on a sheet of

1393
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:28,640
glass

1394
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:30,160
or if it was

1395
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:31,920
something a kite in the background that

1396
00:51:35,349 --> 00:51:33,839
you're trying to maneuver into position

1397
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:35,359
to get it looking right or something

1398
00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:38,880
like that then it'd be highly highly

1399
00:51:44,470 --> 00:51:42,160
unusual to be able to do six frames that

1400
00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:44,480
are convincing sufficiently convincing

1401
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:47,119
to convince the ministry of defense in a

1402
00:51:51,270 --> 00:51:48,880
row that's the kind of thing that you

1403
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:51,280
would really have to take many many

1404
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:53,280
photographs to get it looking just right

1405
00:51:57,829 --> 00:51:54,960
now we don't know if the frames were in

1406
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:57,839
a row um but that would be that would be

1407
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,920
a really useful piece of information

1408
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:02,240
absolutely and as we've said a few times

1409
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:04,559
our investigation is ongoing

1410
00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:06,960
uh multiple lines of inquiry and we will

1411
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:09,119
update as and when so let's watch the

1412
00:52:31,670 --> 00:52:10,720
rest of this video then we can jump into

1413
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,750
definitely looks pretty similar

1414
00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:37,670
yeah i mean you can see how windy it is

1415
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,839
i mean when i went up there with giles

1416
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:41,520
we were literally blown off our feet

1417
00:52:45,190 --> 00:52:43,599
feet at one point

1418
00:52:47,829 --> 00:52:45,200
you can also see the fence post that's

1419
00:52:49,589 --> 00:52:47,839
actually over an angle in that just that

1420
00:52:58,950 --> 00:52:49,599
last clip there

1421
00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:00,309
but this is what this is the best thing

1422
00:53:03,750 --> 00:53:02,160
to do boots on the ground so you know

1423
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:03,760
shout out to strafe actually getting out

1424
00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:05,520
there and doing it i think

1425
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:07,119
it's all good researching and looking at

1426
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:08,880
things from it on a computer screen i'm

1427
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:10,000
not saying there's anything wrong with

1428
00:53:13,829 --> 00:53:11,359
that that's great and some people don't

1429
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:13,839
have access to go to these locations but

1430
00:53:16,870 --> 00:53:15,440
you know i just wanted to highlight that

1431
00:53:18,309 --> 00:53:16,880
strafe did some great work getting out

1432
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:18,319
there and putting all these videos

1433
00:53:31,170 --> 00:53:58,790
[Music]

1434
00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:01,430
so there we go um

1435
00:54:04,549 --> 00:54:02,800
first comment i've just seen here is

1436
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:04,559
deer don't live out in the open and

1437
00:54:10,069 --> 00:54:07,040
there's no resident deer in strewn

1438
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:10,079
wood can anybody speak on that

1439
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:12,240
i do live up in the open

1440
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:14,640
i do see the mountain fields

1441
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:19,280
i contacted the landowner and a huge 90

1442
00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:21,280
000 acre deer reserve

1443
00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:23,680
called athol estates

1444
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:25,440
they own this piece of land they own a

1445
00:54:28,470 --> 00:54:27,119
huge expanse over the other side of the

1446
00:54:30,470 --> 00:54:28,480
a9 as well

1447
00:54:32,309 --> 00:54:30,480
um and they told me that

1448
00:54:34,630 --> 00:54:32,319
they do

1449
00:54:36,309 --> 00:54:34,640
call the deer on this side of the road

1450
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:36,319
in that area

1451
00:54:41,670 --> 00:54:38,960
they don't take paying guests out there

1452
00:54:45,109 --> 00:54:41,680
um but they they do it themselves

1453
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:45,119
so yeah fair enough um

1454
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:47,200
got a point here by professor simon

1455
00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:48,880
holland so

1456
00:54:53,349 --> 00:54:51,040
people forget in 1990 we're all using

1457
00:54:56,069 --> 00:54:53,359
flatbed scanners and photoshop it wasn't

1458
00:54:58,950 --> 00:54:56,079
that long ago the easiest explanation is

1459
00:55:00,309 --> 00:54:58,960
a fake anybody have any comments

1460
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:00,319
i mean how many people were using

1461
00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:02,720
photoshop in 1990

1462
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:07,440
i know i wasn't i i worked on a computer

1463
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:09,359
using image editing software at the

1464
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:11,920
royal college of art in london in 1989

1465
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:15,359
1990 and it was a massive machine and

1466
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:17,280
all we could do is kind of invert the

1467
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:20,640
image or add a false color to it we you

1468
00:55:25,109 --> 00:55:22,160
could do very little

1469
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:25,119
um i was working uh in teaching

1470
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:27,440
establishments in the early 90s

1471
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:29,599
and we were using and it was we were

1472
00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:30,480
pretty

1473
00:55:34,230 --> 00:55:31,839
you know we were

1474
00:55:36,069 --> 00:55:34,240
you know keeping up with things and we

1475
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:36,079
were using mac computers and we had

1476
00:55:40,470 --> 00:55:38,240
early versions of photoshop and as i

1477
00:55:41,910 --> 00:55:40,480
said it wasn't until version 3.0 came

1478
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:41,920
out that you could really do very much

1479
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:45,200
with it and that was 1994.

1480
00:55:50,870 --> 00:55:48,640
so i would say 1990 very few people

1481
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:50,880
would be doing anything with a flatback

1482
00:55:55,430 --> 00:55:53,200
flatbed scanner and a version of

1483
00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:55,440
photoshop you'd be on version 1.0 of

1484
00:56:01,190 --> 00:55:56,960
photoshop

1485
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:01,200
1988

1486
00:56:06,309 --> 00:56:03,920
as a form of scanning software

1487
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:06,319
so it went with scanners to help you

1488
00:56:10,390 --> 00:56:08,400
adjust the contrast and the exposure of

1489
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:10,400
your image when you imported it they

1490
00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:12,960
were bought out by adobe who

1491
00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:14,400
spent a couple years developing it

1492
00:56:18,069 --> 00:56:15,760
before they released it i think in

1493
00:56:20,309 --> 00:56:18,079
february 1990 but it was a very basic

1494
00:56:22,789 --> 00:56:20,319
image editing program at that point

1495
00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:22,799
and the idea of

1496
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:25,280
a member of the general public you know

1497
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:27,359
me at that time having a computer having

1498
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:29,359
photoshop and being able to composite an

1499
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:31,440
image like that i would say

1500
00:56:34,950 --> 00:56:33,280
it's not possible maybe two years later

1501
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:34,960
it would have been um

1502
00:56:38,230 --> 00:56:36,480
three years definitely

1503
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:38,240
excellent

1504
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:40,960
fantastic thank you uh david can we talk

1505
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:46,789
anybody that may you know you've been

1506
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:48,480
around the location knocking on doors

1507
00:56:51,670 --> 00:56:49,920
speaking to people that worked at the

1508
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:51,680
hotel what can we say

1509
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:55,359
about what was talked about

1510
00:56:58,950 --> 00:56:57,119
you know with the witnesses and anyone

1511
00:57:01,270 --> 00:56:58,960
they may have worked with what what well

1512
00:57:03,109 --> 00:57:01,280
i found it really peculiar after doing

1513
00:57:05,030 --> 00:57:03,119
quite a lot of um door knocking which

1514
00:57:06,950 --> 00:57:05,040
used to be my speciality when i was a

1515
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:06,960
journalist is

1516
00:57:10,230 --> 00:57:08,799
not sitting on twitter and speculating

1517
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:10,240
it was actually getting out and knocking

1518
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:12,240
on doors and saying what do you know

1519
00:57:15,670 --> 00:57:14,160
about this do you know this person can

1520
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:15,680
you give me a

1521
00:57:19,589 --> 00:57:17,920
um a lead on something and i found it

1522
00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:19,599
really peculiar i know it was 30 years

1523
00:57:23,829 --> 00:57:21,760
ago but we just got virtually nothing

1524
00:57:25,510 --> 00:57:23,839
from anyone no one remembered anything

1525
00:57:27,190 --> 00:57:25,520
but then the more i looked into it the

1526
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:27,200
more i sort of looked into the history

1527
00:57:31,030 --> 00:57:28,720
of the area and we know these two guys

1528
00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:31,040
were working in one of the local hotels

1529
00:57:35,109 --> 00:57:33,040
the turnover of staff

1530
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:35,119
was just phenomenal you know and and

1531
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,720
it's like this

1532
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:38,559
these guys were sort of people who were

1533
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:41,040
like jobbing chefs dishwashers who were

1534
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:43,440
moving from hotel to hotel during the

1535
00:57:46,390 --> 00:57:44,720
summer season

1536
00:57:47,829 --> 00:57:46,400
and maybe just staying in one place for

1537
00:57:49,829 --> 00:57:47,839
a few months and then moving somewhere

1538
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:49,839
else so actually thinking about it it's

1539
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:51,280
not that unusual at all it's very

1540
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:53,040
different from where i used to sort of

1541
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:54,880
do my um

1542
00:57:58,710 --> 00:57:56,480
stories and investigations which is a

1543
00:58:00,630 --> 00:57:58,720
big metropolis where people know each

1544
00:58:02,870 --> 00:58:00,640
other and you know people have known

1545
00:58:04,630 --> 00:58:02,880
each other for years so i think giles

1546
00:58:06,309 --> 00:58:04,640
will confirm that you've been a local

1547
00:58:07,829 --> 00:58:06,319
resident

1548
00:58:09,670 --> 00:58:07,839
yeah can you hear me again so i keep

1549
00:58:11,589 --> 00:58:09,680
coming in and out all the time i've i've

1550
00:58:13,750 --> 00:58:11,599
been allowed back indoors so

1551
00:58:17,109 --> 00:58:13,760
what's let me back in yeah there's a

1552
00:58:20,230 --> 00:58:17,119
huge turnover of of staff this is a this

1553
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:20,240
is a massive touristy tourist area so

1554
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:22,640
um certainly in the in the hotel

1555
00:58:25,270 --> 00:58:23,680
business

1556
00:58:26,950 --> 00:58:25,280
you know that's that's

1557
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:26,960
that's definitely uh

1558
00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:28,880
quite possible that people would come in

1559
00:58:31,750 --> 00:58:29,760
work

1560
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:31,760
a summer especially if they were very

1561
00:58:35,270 --> 00:58:33,040
young

1562
00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:35,280
um you know and a lot of people they

1563
00:58:39,349 --> 00:58:37,440
only have uh employment through the

1564
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:39,359
summer up here even now you know some

1565
00:58:44,710 --> 00:58:42,000
people they the seasonal run from

1566
00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:44,720
from april to sort of september so we we

1567
00:58:48,710 --> 00:58:46,720
have a local castle four miles down the

1568
00:58:50,630 --> 00:58:48,720
road and it's that's the time it's open

1569
00:58:51,349 --> 00:58:50,640
so it has staff for that period of time

1570
00:58:53,510 --> 00:58:51,359
and

1571
00:58:54,950 --> 00:58:53,520
anyone local you know has to find

1572
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:54,960
alternative employment through the

1573
00:58:57,670 --> 00:58:56,000
winter

1574
00:59:00,630 --> 00:58:57,680
which you do so quite often a lot of

1575
00:59:01,990 --> 00:59:00,640
people up here have more than one job so

1576
00:59:03,910 --> 00:59:02,000
they'll move elsewhere they'll move to

1577
00:59:04,710 --> 00:59:03,920
another town different times of the year

1578
00:59:05,750 --> 00:59:04,720
so

1579
00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:05,760
yeah and

1580
00:59:08,789 --> 00:59:07,760
i'm alright and saying giles that like

1581
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:08,799
the actual

1582
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:12,480
the permanent population you know tends

1583
00:59:15,430 --> 00:59:13,920
there's a permanent population to live

1584
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:15,440
on the farms and the

1585
00:59:18,549 --> 00:59:16,960
small holdings and things but the people

1586
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:18,559
who actually visit the town tend to be

1587
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:20,640
just tourists who are passing through or

1588
00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:22,160
people working in the hotels and there's

1589
00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:25,440
no there's no sort of knowledge or

1590
00:59:28,309 --> 00:59:26,960
things that are passed on necessarily

1591
00:59:30,870 --> 00:59:28,319
from those groups of people who are

1592
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:30,880
working in the hotels to you know i mean

1593
00:59:33,190 --> 00:59:32,000
people were saying to me when i was

1594
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:33,200
there why don't you go and speak to the

1595
00:59:36,630 --> 00:59:35,040
pit locker historical society they'll

1596
00:59:38,230 --> 00:59:36,640
they'll know about it and i just thought

1597
00:59:39,589 --> 00:59:38,240
well they won't

1598
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:39,599
because this is something that's been

1599
00:59:44,390 --> 00:59:42,000
gone without their knowledge

1600
00:59:46,549 --> 00:59:44,400
yeah yeah i mean yeah definitely i mean

1601
00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:46,559
just going back to you mentioned pit

1602
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:47,520
lockery

1603
00:59:51,589 --> 00:59:49,119
but locally i think it has a population

1604
00:59:54,309 --> 00:59:51,599
of around two and a half thousand

1605
00:59:55,910 --> 00:59:54,319
permanent residents and it swells to

1606
00:59:57,910 --> 00:59:55,920
eight thousand

1607
01:00:01,190 --> 00:59:57,920
yeah during the summer and that that

1608
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:01,200
includes the the staff who work

1609
01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:03,440
in the town so that shows you know it's

1610
01:00:06,789 --> 01:00:04,480
it's a

1611
01:00:08,950 --> 01:00:06,799
that shows the the the sort of the

1612
01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:08,960
population difference

1613
01:00:11,829 --> 01:00:11,040
from different times of the year so

1614
01:00:16,470 --> 01:00:11,839
yeah

1615
01:00:17,990 --> 01:00:16,480
work through through the summer and then

1616
01:00:21,030 --> 01:00:18,000
and then would go

1617
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:21,040
until probably the following summer yeah

1618
01:00:25,430 --> 01:00:23,280
yeah so did we hear from anyone that

1619
01:00:27,910 --> 01:00:25,440
spoke to the witnesses or heard maybe

1620
01:00:29,990 --> 01:00:27,920
about yeah i've been speaking to someone

1621
01:00:31,829 --> 01:00:30,000
um for over the last few weeks who work

1622
01:00:33,670 --> 01:00:31,839
with them and who's provided a lot of

1623
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:33,680
information that i'm absolutely

1624
01:00:37,109 --> 01:00:35,359
satisfied this stuff that he's told me

1625
01:00:39,190 --> 01:00:37,119
that's not in the public domain

1626
01:00:40,870 --> 01:00:39,200
and i mean i can read from a message

1627
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:40,880
that he sent me today knowing we were

1628
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:43,359
doing this um doing this broadcast he

1629
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:45,200
says i certainly do not think it's the

1630
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:47,680
hoax joking aside i think that they

1631
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:48,880
would have been way above their

1632
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,040
capabilities we were chefs not gary

1633
01:00:55,430 --> 01:00:53,680
mckinnon they saw something real and you

1634
01:00:57,349 --> 01:00:55,440
could see how it affected them after

1635
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:57,359
three or four days i personally knew

1636
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:59,040
both of them and we were not in the

1637
01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:01,280
habit of telling lies to each other now

1638
01:01:05,829 --> 01:01:03,680
he may be making that up if so how does

1639
01:01:08,390 --> 01:01:05,839
he know the information that he's given

1640
01:01:11,430 --> 01:01:08,400
me that only i know from making

1641
01:01:12,870 --> 01:01:11,440
inquiries locally yeah yeah absolutely

1642
01:01:14,390 --> 01:01:12,880
and it does fit as well some of what you

1643
01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:14,400
just discussed with what craig told us

1644
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:15,760
when he had interviewed the witnesses

1645
01:01:19,030 --> 01:01:17,280
about they were young they were on a

1646
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:19,040
youth training scheme

1647
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:19,920
um

1648
01:01:24,470 --> 01:01:22,640
one of them was possibly english it does

1649
01:01:26,230 --> 01:01:24,480
you know these small pieces even when

1650
01:01:28,710 --> 01:01:26,240
they stand alone don't give us much but

1651
01:01:30,630 --> 01:01:28,720
put together they start forming a

1652
01:01:31,750 --> 01:01:30,640
picture and of course you can't say that

1653
01:01:33,670 --> 01:01:31,760
that's conclusive because it's

1654
01:01:35,750 --> 01:01:33,680
absolutely not but it still points you

1655
01:01:38,549 --> 01:01:35,760
in a direction which you think

1656
01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:38,559
we're going in the right direction so no

1657
01:01:44,150 --> 01:01:41,040
absolutely i appreciate that um let's

1658
01:01:47,109 --> 01:01:44,160
move on to the next talking point

1659
01:01:48,710 --> 01:01:47,119
um we will go to

1660
01:01:50,069 --> 01:01:48,720
why they might be out walking at 9 00

1661
01:01:53,829 --> 01:01:50,079
p.m

1662
01:01:55,270 --> 01:01:53,839
we can cover that did we

1663
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:55,280
anybody why do we think they were

1664
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:57,839
walking out after a shift at nine well

1665
01:02:00,789 --> 01:01:59,440
there's been there's been all kinds of

1666
01:02:02,390 --> 01:02:00,799
things offered

1667
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:02,400
in this respect

1668
01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:04,160
i think originally um nick pope

1669
01:02:08,390 --> 01:02:06,880
described them as hikers um then they've

1670
01:02:10,150 --> 01:02:08,400
been dis um

1671
01:02:12,549 --> 01:02:10,160
well i mean it's quite like let's put it

1672
01:02:13,990 --> 01:02:12,559
this way the a lot of the confusion is

1673
01:02:15,430 --> 01:02:14,000
is simply

1674
01:02:18,309 --> 01:02:15,440
people um

1675
01:02:20,069 --> 01:02:18,319
drawing conclusions that might not be um

1676
01:02:23,029 --> 01:02:20,079
might not be based on reality it is

1677
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:23,039
quite possible to be a hiker and a chef

1678
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:24,720
for instance and do

1679
01:02:28,069 --> 01:02:26,799
both things at the same time

1680
01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:28,079
um

1681
01:02:31,589 --> 01:02:29,599
the the then there's the thing about

1682
01:02:33,670 --> 01:02:31,599
them being purchased now the the story

1683
01:02:35,990 --> 01:02:33,680
about them being purchased is came from

1684
01:02:37,990 --> 01:02:36,000
me and it came from a discussion that i

1685
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:38,000
had with a member of the defense

1686
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:39,760
intelligence staff who i'm not a liberty

1687
01:02:43,349 --> 01:02:41,680
to name who dropped it out in a

1688
01:02:44,950 --> 01:02:43,359
conversation with me about something

1689
01:02:46,630 --> 01:02:44,960
completely different now he may have

1690
01:02:47,910 --> 01:02:46,640
been sending me down some kind of rabbit

1691
01:02:50,789 --> 01:02:47,920
hole or sending me off in the wrong

1692
01:02:52,950 --> 01:02:50,799
direction but a number of people on who

1693
01:02:57,349 --> 01:02:52,960
who are on this program have listened to

1694
01:02:58,950 --> 01:02:57,359
a recording of that conversation and

1695
01:03:00,309 --> 01:02:58,960
what do you think

1696
01:03:02,390 --> 01:03:00,319
you've heard it it's a casual

1697
01:03:04,789 --> 01:03:02,400
conversation it's certainly not planned

1698
01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:04,799
or prepared and

1699
01:03:07,670 --> 01:03:05,760
it would have been a hell of a lot

1700
01:03:09,829 --> 01:03:07,680
easier for him to just say it's a hoax

1701
01:03:12,069 --> 01:03:09,839
and be done with it he brought the case

1702
01:03:13,430 --> 01:03:12,079
up in the conversation not you

1703
01:03:14,789 --> 01:03:13,440
there are so many little pointers i

1704
01:03:17,430 --> 01:03:14,799
think this guy's just chatting he's just

1705
01:03:19,990 --> 01:03:17,440
chatting openly and freely there's no

1706
01:03:21,670 --> 01:03:20,000
deception and this is i'm not an expert

1707
01:03:23,190 --> 01:03:21,680
but this is how i read it if anybody

1708
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:23,200
else has anything different to that you

1709
01:03:28,309 --> 01:03:25,200
know cool

1710
01:03:31,829 --> 01:03:28,319
just back to the nine nine pm sorry ted

1711
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:31,839
yeah i think early august up here uh

1712
01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:34,240
sunset is half nine

1713
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,079
uh dusk is half 10. so it's quite normal

1714
01:03:42,390 --> 01:03:40,079
we we quite often go out at that time of

1715
01:03:44,309 --> 01:03:42,400
night in the summer you make most of the

1716
01:03:45,349 --> 01:03:44,319
light you know because you have very

1717
01:03:49,510 --> 01:03:45,359
long

1718
01:03:51,029 --> 01:03:49,520
mean that's that's perfectly plausible

1719
01:03:53,270 --> 01:03:51,039
that someone will be out that time i

1720
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:53,280
said we frequently go so it's normally a

1721
01:03:57,589 --> 01:03:54,799
very nice time of the evening certainly

1722
01:03:59,589 --> 01:03:57,599
in the summer so and the story from from

1723
01:04:01,510 --> 01:03:59,599
um craig that he remember being told by

1724
01:04:03,670 --> 01:04:01,520
them is that they had a long hard shift

1725
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:03,680
in the um i think a 12-hour shift or

1726
01:04:06,069 --> 01:04:04,720
something

1727
01:04:08,309 --> 01:04:06,079
they just wanted to get out and do a

1728
01:04:10,470 --> 01:04:08,319
walk yeah it was light which is

1729
01:04:11,829 --> 01:04:10,480
perfectly consistent but i do think it's

1730
01:04:13,349 --> 01:04:11,839
a bit odd why would you take a camera

1731
01:04:16,390 --> 01:04:13,359
with you but i understand that one of

1732
01:04:18,630 --> 01:04:16,400
them was a keen twitcher uh bird watcher

1733
01:04:20,390 --> 01:04:18,640
so maybe he was into photography and i

1734
01:04:21,910 --> 01:04:20,400
think andrew said in his analysis that

1735
01:04:23,990 --> 01:04:21,920
it looks as if the photographer knew a

1736
01:04:25,670 --> 01:04:24,000
little bit about photography so there

1737
01:04:28,390 --> 01:04:25,680
you go

1738
01:04:31,109 --> 01:04:28,400
i mean a slightly irrelevant point but

1739
01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:31,119
you know when i was 18 and it's quite

1740
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:32,160
known that i used to be into

1741
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:33,760
skateboarding in that and we were all

1742
01:04:37,510 --> 01:04:35,760
typical teenage tearaways but a couple

1743
01:04:39,589 --> 01:04:37,520
of the lads were keen photographers who

1744
01:04:41,589 --> 01:04:39,599
had nice cameras played around with

1745
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:41,599
different film types we'd still go and

1746
01:04:44,549 --> 01:04:43,200
get drunk and do all that crazy stuff

1747
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:44,559
but you know anyone can be a

1748
01:04:48,549 --> 01:04:46,559
photographer you don't have to be

1749
01:04:49,910 --> 01:04:48,559
you know

1750
01:04:52,309 --> 01:04:49,920
they're not exclusive are they

1751
01:05:03,670 --> 01:04:52,319
photographers like a chef you know

1752
01:05:08,710 --> 01:05:06,069
yes the light was um civil twilight i

1753
01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:08,720
think it was called officially and yeah

1754
01:05:13,349 --> 01:05:11,280
and i've read cases where uh people

1755
01:05:16,150 --> 01:05:13,359
further north in scotland

1756
01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:16,160
you know because of the the way that uh

1757
01:05:19,829 --> 01:05:18,240
it works they have um in the armed

1758
01:05:21,510 --> 01:05:19,839
forces on some of the islands further

1759
01:05:22,549 --> 01:05:21,520
north they used to have midnight games

1760
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:22,559
of golf

1761
01:05:26,470 --> 01:05:24,480
um because there was you know the light

1762
01:05:27,990 --> 01:05:26,480
was such that you could you could play

1763
01:05:29,670 --> 01:05:28,000
golf you would play around with golf so

1764
01:05:32,789 --> 01:05:29,680
yeah admittedly we're further south but

1765
01:05:34,870 --> 01:05:32,799
so the times earlier as well so yeah

1766
01:05:38,230 --> 01:05:34,880
definitely matthew yeah even even here

1767
01:05:40,630 --> 01:05:38,240
um at the end of june so the longest day

1768
01:05:42,870 --> 01:05:40,640
i can walk out around midnight and you

1769
01:05:43,990 --> 01:05:42,880
can see they called not to loosen clouds

1770
01:05:46,069 --> 01:05:44,000
or something

1771
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:46,079
uh it's so bright i could walk without a

1772
01:05:51,349 --> 01:05:48,799
torch it's quite stunning in the summer

1773
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:51,359
so early early august would be

1774
01:06:00,390 --> 01:05:57,990
yeah yeah and the the um the guy on the

1775
01:06:01,990 --> 01:06:00,400
phone the uh the conversation

1776
01:06:04,069 --> 01:06:02,000
it's a matter of fact he's just

1777
01:06:05,829 --> 01:06:04,079
recounting he's not he doesn't pause you

1778
01:06:07,349 --> 01:06:05,839
know he doesn't uh

1779
01:06:09,510 --> 01:06:07,359
you don't get any indication from his

1780
01:06:11,349 --> 01:06:09,520
tone of voice he's he's so

1781
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:11,359
straightforward and especially in there

1782
01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:13,200
like when he when he's disparaging about

1783
01:06:17,109 --> 01:06:14,880
certain people and and things like that

1784
01:06:19,510 --> 01:06:17,119
that uh you can tell it's sort of from

1785
01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:19,520
the heart and a genuine

1786
01:06:22,870 --> 01:06:22,000
recollection that's how it appears to me

1787
01:06:27,270 --> 01:06:22,880
yeah

1788
01:06:29,190 --> 01:06:27,280
the hour mark i don't have anyone else

1789
01:06:31,430 --> 01:06:29,200
but i'm going to take a a quick toilet

1790
01:06:33,589 --> 01:06:31,440
break um one thing i'll leave a question

1791
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:33,599
with david if if you don't mind is and

1792
01:06:37,750 --> 01:06:35,440
you mentioned this actually in

1793
01:06:39,270 --> 01:06:37,760
in our initial reveal video reveal yeah

1794
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:39,280
reveal video was

1795
01:06:45,750 --> 01:06:43,280
again from defense intelligence if

1796
01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:45,760
for example it was secret technology why

1797
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:47,280
are they testing it in scotland and not

1798
01:06:50,950 --> 01:06:49,119
over you know

1799
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:50,960
america all the test ranges they have

1800
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:52,480
out there if you you know if you could

1801
01:06:58,950 --> 01:06:57,910
interesting one yeah um what we don't we

1802
01:07:00,870 --> 01:06:58,960
just don't know do we i mean i've heard

1803
01:07:02,710 --> 01:07:00,880
i've heard several theories about this

1804
01:07:05,430 --> 01:07:02,720
one of the earliest i heard from a from

1805
01:07:06,870 --> 01:07:05,440
a an raf i know i've got to keep saying

1806
01:07:08,630 --> 01:07:06,880
source but

1807
01:07:10,150 --> 01:07:08,640
when people tell you things anonymously

1808
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:10,160
it's on the condition that you don't

1809
01:07:14,390 --> 01:07:12,640
reveal who they are and that that's the

1810
01:07:16,710 --> 01:07:14,400
only way that they they will talk to you

1811
01:07:18,390 --> 01:07:16,720
and i i hate having to use anonymous

1812
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:18,400
sources as a journalist i always want to

1813
01:07:24,549 --> 01:07:21,599
use name ones but um a lot of what these

1814
01:07:26,309 --> 01:07:24,559
people say um corroborates each other

1815
01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:26,319
you know and that they say things and

1816
01:07:30,950 --> 01:07:28,400
one of the earliest um

1817
01:07:32,710 --> 01:07:30,960
um what things i was told this is via

1818
01:07:35,589 --> 01:07:32,720
someone who knows craig

1819
01:07:38,150 --> 01:07:35,599
um who actually helped me find craig he

1820
01:07:40,069 --> 01:07:38,160
said that he understood that what this

1821
01:07:42,230 --> 01:07:40,079
was was something the americans had sent

1822
01:07:44,069 --> 01:07:42,240
over that was supposed to be invisible

1823
01:07:46,309 --> 01:07:44,079
and it was it was a an

1824
01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:46,319
attempt to trigger our air defense

1825
01:07:49,029 --> 01:07:48,160
system and to see whether we could see

1826
01:07:51,270 --> 01:07:49,039
it

1827
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:51,280
and so his first question to me was have

1828
01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:54,079
you found out whether the qra was

1829
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:56,880
triggered on the 4th of august 1990 and

1830
01:08:01,589 --> 01:07:58,799
i thought what's he talking about and

1831
01:08:04,549 --> 01:08:01,599
graham you'll know one time

1832
01:08:07,670 --> 01:08:04,559
interceptors from an raf base uh lucas

1833
01:08:09,910 --> 01:08:07,680
washington or collingsbee

1834
01:08:11,829 --> 01:08:09,920
yeah so that's that's what he was saying

1835
01:08:13,349 --> 01:08:11,839
it was a deliberate um test of our air

1836
01:08:15,029 --> 01:08:13,359
defenses by something that was supposed

1837
01:08:16,149 --> 01:08:15,039
to be invisible and obviously it wasn't

1838
01:08:19,990 --> 01:08:16,159
invisible

1839
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:20,000
meant radar not sight

1840
01:08:23,510 --> 01:08:21,520
yeah exactly

1841
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:23,520
yeah and you've got you've got to also i

1842
01:08:27,269 --> 01:08:25,679
mean i think uh gordon who did the um

1843
01:08:28,870 --> 01:08:27,279
gordon hudson who did that bit of he

1844
01:08:30,550 --> 01:08:28,880
came up with the theory about it being a

1845
01:08:31,829 --> 01:08:30,560
reflection of the mountaintop i mean he

1846
01:08:34,709 --> 01:08:31,839
he

1847
01:08:36,229 --> 01:08:34,719
to me

1848
01:08:37,590 --> 01:08:36,239
it's the time it happened that's

1849
01:08:39,269 --> 01:08:37,600
significant there's got to be some

1850
01:08:41,189 --> 01:08:39,279
connection because this was two days

1851
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:41,199
after the outbreak of the first gulf war

1852
01:08:45,749 --> 01:08:44,080
operation desert storm so two days

1853
01:08:47,829 --> 01:08:45,759
uh two days before this incident

1854
01:08:49,910 --> 01:08:47,839
happened saddam hussein's forces crossed

1855
01:08:51,430 --> 01:08:49,920
into kuwait and if you go to the

1856
01:08:53,189 --> 01:08:51,440
national archives as i've done and i

1857
01:08:54,950 --> 01:08:53,199
think graham has you look at the

1858
01:08:57,189 --> 01:08:54,960
operations record books at all the

1859
01:08:59,749 --> 01:08:57,199
squadrons and all the air bases in and

1860
01:09:01,510 --> 01:08:59,759
around scotland they were frantic they

1861
01:09:03,669 --> 01:09:01,520
were they were aircraft um doing

1862
01:09:05,110 --> 01:09:03,679
low-level exercises there were aircraft

1863
01:09:07,269 --> 01:09:05,120
carriers i believe somewhere in the

1864
01:09:09,189 --> 01:09:07,279
vicinity everything was heading down to

1865
01:09:11,749 --> 01:09:09,199
the gulf so the fact that this was

1866
01:09:14,070 --> 01:09:11,759
something military to me why people find

1867
01:09:16,950 --> 01:09:14,080
that such a difficult thing to buy it to

1868
01:09:18,870 --> 01:09:16,960
accept i i find bizarre to me it's the

1869
01:09:20,670 --> 01:09:18,880
most obvious explanation

1870
01:09:21,990 --> 01:09:20,680
um yeah you know um

1871
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:22,000
[Music]

1872
01:09:24,470 --> 01:09:23,199
graham do you want to add anything to

1873
01:09:26,229 --> 01:09:24,480
that you've looked at the same yeah i

1874
01:09:27,669 --> 01:09:26,239
mean i've looked at the the harrier

1875
01:09:30,390 --> 01:09:27,679
squadrons so it's one three and four

1876
01:09:31,110 --> 01:09:30,400
squadron and and yes there's activity

1877
01:09:33,030 --> 01:09:31,120
but

1878
01:09:34,390 --> 01:09:33,040
still wasn't really at weekends and

1879
01:09:36,229 --> 01:09:34,400
certainly not in scotland because

1880
01:09:38,630 --> 01:09:36,239
there's no reference to you know

1881
01:09:39,749 --> 01:09:38,640
anything happening that's that far north

1882
01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:39,759
so

1883
01:09:43,189 --> 01:09:41,839
and yet your net that you're not in one

1884
01:09:44,870 --> 01:09:43,199
of what they call the tactical training

1885
01:09:46,789 --> 01:09:44,880
areas which is the really low level

1886
01:09:48,390 --> 01:09:46,799
areas everywhere in the country is

1887
01:09:50,630 --> 01:09:48,400
actually a little flying area apart from

1888
01:09:52,149 --> 01:09:50,640
big cities even places like east anglia

1889
01:09:54,310 --> 01:09:52,159
where it's flat and there's no mountains

1890
01:09:55,830 --> 01:09:54,320
there is a low flying area there but

1891
01:09:58,310 --> 01:09:55,840
there are three places in the country

1892
01:10:00,470 --> 01:09:58,320
where aircraft can get down to 100 feet

1893
01:10:02,550 --> 01:10:00,480
in certain times of the day but they're

1894
01:10:04,950 --> 01:10:02,560
all advertised in advance and anything

1895
01:10:06,630 --> 01:10:04,960
else has to be above 500 it can't come

1896
01:10:07,990 --> 01:10:06,640
down any further if they're being used

1897
01:10:09,510 --> 01:10:08,000
to 100 feet

1898
01:10:11,110 --> 01:10:09,520
and you're talking about the north of

1899
01:10:13,510 --> 01:10:11,120
scotland north of the great glen so

1900
01:10:14,950 --> 01:10:13,520
that's much further north than calvin

1901
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:14,960
you're talking about an area of southern

1902
01:10:19,830 --> 01:10:18,000
scotland kind of from north dumfries um

1903
01:10:22,350 --> 01:10:19,840
into the borders area and a bit in

1904
01:10:25,830 --> 01:10:22,360
northumberland that's uh tta uh

1905
01:10:27,750 --> 01:10:25,840
lfx16t uh the scotland ones elephant six

1906
01:10:30,390 --> 01:10:27,760
14 and then you've got a part of mid

1907
01:10:32,070 --> 01:10:30,400
wales which is lfx 7t they're the three

1908
01:10:34,310 --> 01:10:32,080
technical training areas which are

1909
01:10:35,990 --> 01:10:34,320
really low and they would be used for

1910
01:10:37,030 --> 01:10:36,000
that kind of build up because they're

1911
01:10:38,390 --> 01:10:37,040
looking to the point where they're

1912
01:10:40,470 --> 01:10:38,400
getting so low that they can't be picked

1913
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:40,480
up by an enemy radar and that's a good

1914
01:10:45,030 --> 01:10:42,640
skill to keep on top of for any future

1915
01:10:47,669 --> 01:10:45,040
conflict so those were definitely

1916
01:10:49,669 --> 01:10:47,679
heavily used but not a weekend still

1917
01:10:51,350 --> 01:10:49,679
because the the gulf war preparations

1918
01:10:53,270 --> 01:10:51,360
hadn't ramped up to the point

1919
01:10:55,590 --> 01:10:53,280
that early on where they were imminently

1920
01:10:57,590 --> 01:10:55,600
going to be sort of in combat so i can't

1921
01:10:59,189 --> 01:10:57,600
see any evidence of the files i've

1922
01:11:00,630 --> 01:10:59,199
looked at to say that they're actually

1923
01:11:02,709 --> 01:11:00,640
doing low-level intensive trainings on

1924
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:02,719
the weekend but other units might have

1925
01:11:05,910 --> 01:11:04,560
and it might be somewhere else as well

1926
01:11:07,910 --> 01:11:05,920
um but if you're just going down the

1927
01:11:09,110 --> 01:11:07,920
line the harrier squadrons then there's

1928
01:11:10,709 --> 01:11:09,120
nothing to indicate that they're

1929
01:11:12,070 --> 01:11:10,719
actually operating in that part of

1930
01:11:14,310 --> 01:11:12,080
scotland or actually anywhere in

1931
01:11:15,830 --> 01:11:14,320
scotland at that time

1932
01:11:17,830 --> 01:11:15,840
could that lead into it possibly being

1933
01:11:19,430 --> 01:11:17,840
something like a hunter book i believe

1934
01:11:21,750 --> 01:11:19,440
is it two three seven oc you were

1935
01:11:23,430 --> 01:11:21,760
operating hundreds in that yeah so yeah

1936
01:11:24,790 --> 01:11:23,440
well the hunters were still being used

1937
01:11:27,750 --> 01:11:24,800
by both the royal air force and the

1938
01:11:29,669 --> 01:11:27,760
royal navy because um the raf was still

1939
01:11:31,910 --> 01:11:29,679
operating the buccaneer the strike

1940
01:11:33,590 --> 01:11:31,920
aircraft it had been a carrier aircraft

1941
01:11:34,950 --> 01:11:33,600
but we didn't have carriers big enough

1942
01:11:36,630 --> 01:11:34,960
to be able to operate them from so they

1943
01:11:39,189 --> 01:11:36,640
will land attack they were land based

1944
01:11:41,110 --> 01:11:39,199
attack aircraft and they used

1945
01:11:43,669 --> 01:11:41,120
the two-seat version of the hunter which

1946
01:11:45,270 --> 01:11:43,679
was quite an old 50s design

1947
01:11:47,430 --> 01:11:45,280
to train

1948
01:11:51,270 --> 01:11:47,440
pilots navigators to fly

1949
01:11:53,590 --> 01:11:51,280
on buccaneers but by 19 when this case

1950
01:11:56,070 --> 01:11:53,600
happened it was they were in the final

1951
01:11:58,070 --> 01:11:56,080
months kind of you know within about a

1952
01:11:59,590 --> 01:11:58,080
year of being taken out of service for

1953
01:12:01,110 --> 01:11:59,600
that role because the buccaneers were

1954
01:12:02,390 --> 01:12:01,120
coming out of service as well so there

1955
01:12:03,750 --> 01:12:02,400
was no point to them i think they're all

1956
01:12:06,310 --> 01:12:03,760
maybe soldiers on a little bit longer

1957
01:12:09,110 --> 01:12:06,320
with their t7s and t8s but that was

1958
01:12:10,390 --> 01:12:09,120
about it um the empire test school were

1959
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:10,400
flying them

1960
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:12,000
and there was uh i think there might be

1961
01:12:17,430 --> 01:12:15,360
some others on trials etc etc so yes

1962
01:12:18,870 --> 01:12:17,440
that technically you know um

1963
01:12:21,590 --> 01:12:18,880
theoretically you could have a hunter

1964
01:12:23,030 --> 01:12:21,600
there um other people have said and i've

1965
01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:23,040
actually got a list of the types of

1966
01:12:26,550 --> 01:12:24,560
varies people have said oh this is what

1967
01:12:28,870 --> 01:12:26,560
they are so other people said they're f4

1968
01:12:31,189 --> 01:12:28,880
phantoms yes they were based at lucas

1969
01:12:33,430 --> 01:12:31,199
which is like 80 um seventy miles away

1970
01:12:36,149 --> 01:12:33,440
the crow flies from calvin or maybe even

1971
01:12:39,030 --> 01:12:36,159
less um and that was one of the quick

1972
01:12:40,630 --> 01:12:39,040
reaction alert um locations that um dave

1973
01:12:41,910 --> 01:12:40,640
mentioned there so that's where if the

1974
01:12:43,510 --> 01:12:41,920
russians came off the east coast

1975
01:12:46,149 --> 01:12:43,520
somewhere those aircraft would be

1976
01:12:47,030 --> 01:12:46,159
scrambled to intercept a bear bomber or

1977
01:12:49,270 --> 01:12:47,040
about

1978
01:12:50,950 --> 01:12:49,280
one of those aircraft

1979
01:12:52,709 --> 01:12:50,960
but they're also based of washington and

1980
01:12:54,149 --> 01:12:52,719
suffolk um they weren't based at

1981
01:12:55,910 --> 01:12:54,159
connie's because that wasn't i was a

1982
01:12:56,950 --> 01:12:55,920
different base in binbrick as well so

1983
01:12:58,790 --> 01:12:56,960
there are other

1984
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:58,800
other aircraft based of those those

1985
01:13:02,070 --> 01:13:00,000
airfields

1986
01:13:03,510 --> 01:13:02,080
so yes theoretically a couple of

1987
01:13:05,590 --> 01:13:03,520
phantoms could have been

1988
01:13:07,189 --> 01:13:05,600
scrambled from from lookers to some

1989
01:13:08,709 --> 01:13:07,199
theoretical intercept to something that

1990
01:13:11,189 --> 01:13:08,719
the you know they were trying to test

1991
01:13:12,709 --> 01:13:11,199
against um so that's possible but that

1992
01:13:15,110 --> 01:13:12,719
aircraft doesn't in the image doesn't

1993
01:13:16,950 --> 01:13:15,120
look like an f4 um it looks like a

1994
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:16,960
harrier the other aircraft that's been

1995
01:13:21,430 --> 01:13:18,640
mentioned is an alpha jet i think chris

1996
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:21,440
leto mentioned that um the other day but

1997
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:22,239
um

1998
01:13:29,990 --> 01:13:27,600
uh people down south they didn't operate

1999
01:13:32,470 --> 01:13:30,000
alpha jets until 1991 i believe they

2000
01:13:34,470 --> 01:13:32,480
bought 12 from the germans we only ended

2001
01:13:35,830 --> 01:13:34,480
up flying six of them anyway yeah

2002
01:13:39,270 --> 01:13:35,840
we do

2003
01:13:41,510 --> 01:13:39,280
which is apparently from the jarrick

2004
01:13:43,110 --> 01:13:41,520
analysis

2005
01:13:44,790 --> 01:13:43,120
yeah so this is what i'm leading up to

2006
01:13:46,229 --> 01:13:44,800
i'm trying to basically go through all

2007
01:13:47,990 --> 01:13:46,239
the ones that people have said look this

2008
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:48,000
is really what it is graham it's not a

2009
01:13:51,430 --> 01:13:50,000
carrier that's not a harrier of it so

2010
01:13:53,590 --> 01:13:51,440
there's two things

2011
01:13:56,630 --> 01:13:53,600
you're right in the documentation

2012
01:13:58,390 --> 01:13:56,640
regarding um the the photo analysis when

2013
01:14:00,790 --> 01:13:58,400
it comes back and this is a defense

2014
01:14:03,110 --> 01:14:00,800
intelligence staff ops imagery tasking

2015
01:14:07,110 --> 01:14:03,120
form which was as you say was released

2016
01:14:09,750 --> 01:14:07,120
in in um by the mod this is march 2009

2017
01:14:11,350 --> 01:14:09,760
notes on it about the view files which

2018
01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:11,360
are what uh the things to do with

2019
01:14:15,830 --> 01:14:13,679
overhead projections and there's been a

2020
01:14:17,990 --> 01:14:15,840
request for quotes line drawings of

2021
01:14:20,070 --> 01:14:18,000
object with size and dimension where

2022
01:14:22,870 --> 01:14:20,080
possible this is a re-task of an

2023
01:14:24,070 --> 01:14:22,880
original passed in september 1990. so

2024
01:14:25,510 --> 01:14:24,080
they must have looked at that and then

2025
01:14:27,990 --> 01:14:25,520
they looked at it again

2026
01:14:30,070 --> 01:14:28,000
original negatives are not available and

2027
01:14:31,590 --> 01:14:30,080
then if you look at the bit underneath

2028
01:14:33,189 --> 01:14:31,600
where it says essential elements of

2029
01:14:35,910 --> 01:14:33,199
information the notes which are

2030
01:14:38,229 --> 01:14:35,920
handwritten say task already discussed

2031
01:14:40,790 --> 01:14:38,239
with ops four squadron

2032
01:14:42,390 --> 01:14:40,800
now four squadron was a harrier squadron

2033
01:14:45,590 --> 01:14:42,400
so that's where that

2034
01:14:46,950 --> 01:14:45,600
information comes from jarek must have

2035
01:14:48,870 --> 01:14:46,960
looked at that information to come up

2036
01:14:50,390 --> 01:14:48,880
with that however

2037
01:14:51,910 --> 01:14:50,400
the the thing that people are missing

2038
01:14:53,750 --> 01:14:51,920
when they're looking at the just this

2039
01:14:55,830 --> 01:14:53,760
one image and trying to extrapolate the

2040
01:14:58,390 --> 01:14:55,840
meaning from it is there were five other

2041
01:15:00,229 --> 01:14:58,400
images we haven't seen them we don't

2042
01:15:02,630 --> 01:15:00,239
know what's shown on them we don't know

2043
01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:02,640
how clear the image is on those

2044
01:15:06,470 --> 01:15:04,080
particular pictures

2045
01:15:08,470 --> 01:15:06,480
the the aircraft could be much more much

2046
01:15:09,430 --> 01:15:08,480
closer it could be that defined you know

2047
01:15:10,790 --> 01:15:09,440
there could be a whole range of things

2048
01:15:12,390 --> 01:15:10,800
going on with it and also the object as

2049
01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:12,400
well i mean what's that's not forgetting

2050
01:15:15,270 --> 01:15:14,159
about that and also

2051
01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:15,280
isn't there supposed to be a second

2052
01:15:18,470 --> 01:15:17,040
harrier on one of them as well this is

2053
01:15:20,149 --> 01:15:18,480
again something i'm just about to

2054
01:15:23,350 --> 01:15:20,159
address yeah you're just friendly i'm

2055
01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:23,360
sorry um in what they do mention in the

2056
01:15:27,030 --> 01:15:25,040
photo analysis that there's a hint of

2057
01:15:28,790 --> 01:15:27,040
another aircraft

2058
01:15:30,550 --> 01:15:28,800
possibly a harrier but they're not too

2059
01:15:31,270 --> 01:15:30,560
sure presumably because it's maybe just

2060
01:15:37,110 --> 01:15:31,280
a

2061
01:15:39,030 --> 01:15:37,120
but so we've got five

2062
01:15:41,590 --> 01:15:39,040
images that we simply don't know but

2063
01:15:42,709 --> 01:15:41,600
when you look at that aircraft and the

2064
01:15:44,550 --> 01:15:42,719
image that you showed before and you

2065
01:15:46,470 --> 01:15:44,560
showed the blow up and andrew you have

2066
01:15:48,390 --> 01:15:46,480
the picture of the uh the sea harry frx

2067
01:15:51,189 --> 01:15:48,400
one next to it you can see the

2068
01:15:52,470 --> 01:15:51,199
similarity between the aircraft i know

2069
01:15:54,310 --> 01:15:52,480
there were slightly different types but

2070
01:15:56,870 --> 01:15:54,320
essentially the same air frame it's just

2071
01:15:59,030 --> 01:15:56,880
the nose is different and on harry gr3

2072
01:16:01,189 --> 01:15:59,040
which was just coming out that's

2073
01:16:05,030 --> 01:16:01,199
there's somewhere else um that's a

2074
01:16:08,950 --> 01:16:05,040
tornado a tornado f3 so here's a harrier

2075
01:16:10,870 --> 01:16:08,960
geoff gr7 uh and it's got uh brimstone

2076
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:10,880
missiles on it i i took this in the lake

2077
01:16:15,590 --> 01:16:13,280
district um back in the late um

2078
01:16:17,669 --> 01:16:15,600
in about 2007 or so

2079
01:16:19,430 --> 01:16:17,679
and that's me perched on top of a crag

2080
01:16:21,910 --> 01:16:19,440
looking down on it

2081
01:16:23,830 --> 01:16:21,920
uh coming up the valley of film here um

2082
01:16:26,390 --> 01:16:23,840
so it's a similar type of aircraft this

2083
01:16:28,310 --> 01:16:26,400
is and this is the same aircraft um in

2084
01:16:29,910 --> 01:16:28,320
the same kind of uh area coming round

2085
01:16:31,990 --> 01:16:29,920
again for a second go

2086
01:16:33,590 --> 01:16:32,000
you can see the kind of aircraft and you

2087
01:16:36,229 --> 01:16:33,600
can see the way it looks and if you look

2088
01:16:38,310 --> 01:16:36,239
at the image that was taken at calvin

2089
01:16:39,830 --> 01:16:38,320
you can see it looks like a gr3 which is

2090
01:16:41,189 --> 01:16:39,840
the earlier version of those pictures

2091
01:16:43,430 --> 01:16:41,199
that vinnie's just shown there that i

2092
01:16:44,790 --> 01:16:43,440
took and the nose is slightly different

2093
01:16:46,470 --> 01:16:44,800
it was said it was a ground attack

2094
01:16:47,990 --> 01:16:46,480
aircraft so it doesn't have like a kind

2095
01:16:51,030 --> 01:16:48,000
of air defense rate on the front so it's

2096
01:16:52,950 --> 01:16:51,040
not a big nose cone it's got a very thin

2097
01:16:55,430 --> 01:16:52,960
almost kind of point it's not quite

2098
01:16:57,030 --> 01:16:55,440
pointed but it sticks out quite a bit um

2099
01:16:59,189 --> 01:16:57,040
and that was quite a distinct feature on

2100
01:17:02,229 --> 01:16:59,199
the on the earlier marker harriet and

2101
01:17:04,310 --> 01:17:02,239
that and to me that image does look like

2102
01:17:05,910 --> 01:17:04,320
a harrier gr3

2103
01:17:07,830 --> 01:17:05,920
but you don't know what's on the other

2104
01:17:09,669 --> 01:17:07,840
images and i suspect when jarek looked

2105
01:17:13,350 --> 01:17:09,679
at it and then passed the information to

2106
01:17:15,350 --> 01:17:13,360
di55 then they probably had much better

2107
01:17:17,430 --> 01:17:15,360
information to look at and much better

2108
01:17:19,669 --> 01:17:17,440
pictures to look at that said yeah

2109
01:17:21,510 --> 01:17:19,679
that's a harriet because

2110
01:17:24,149 --> 01:17:21,520
that they're those you know those guys

2111
01:17:25,990 --> 01:17:24,159
at jarek uh the joint air reconnaissance

2112
01:17:28,630 --> 01:17:26,000
intelligence center their job was to

2113
01:17:30,709 --> 01:17:28,640
look at um imagery regarding soviet

2114
01:17:32,229 --> 01:17:30,719
bases to do with you know satellite kind

2115
01:17:34,550 --> 01:17:32,239
of imagery and that kind of thing and

2116
01:17:35,990 --> 01:17:34,560
they they were looking at to see what um

2117
01:17:38,070 --> 01:17:36,000
things look like on the ground so they

2118
01:17:40,470 --> 01:17:38,080
were quite good at interpreting shapes

2119
01:17:42,070 --> 01:17:40,480
of of aircraft either known or unknown

2120
01:17:43,750 --> 01:17:42,080
uh to work out what things were on the

2121
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:43,760
ground in all manner of other weapon

2122
01:17:47,910 --> 01:17:45,920
systems so they would be very very

2123
01:17:49,430 --> 01:17:47,920
skilled in telling what a particular

2124
01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:49,440
aircraft was from certain different from

2125
01:17:53,350 --> 01:17:51,520
different angles uh much like your air

2126
01:17:55,110 --> 01:17:53,360
cadets are you know when they do

2127
01:17:57,110 --> 01:17:55,120
aircraft recognition drill from

2128
01:17:58,950 --> 01:17:57,120
different angles as well so the really

2129
01:18:00,709 --> 01:17:58,960
good ones can say yeah that's that kind

2130
01:18:02,470 --> 01:18:00,719
of aircraft and

2131
01:18:04,709 --> 01:18:02,480
upside down or from the back or from the

2132
01:18:06,790 --> 01:18:04,719
front or different angles so you get

2133
01:18:08,630 --> 01:18:06,800
that kind of level of knowledge through

2134
01:18:10,870 --> 01:18:08,640
experience and for somebody like me

2135
01:18:12,390 --> 01:18:10,880
who's been interested in aircraft for

2136
01:18:14,950 --> 01:18:12,400
over 50 years

2137
01:18:17,270 --> 01:18:14,960
um 51 years now since i i started this

2138
01:18:18,709 --> 01:18:17,280
hobby um you know i'm

2139
01:18:20,310 --> 01:18:18,719
reasonable about being able to tell

2140
01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:20,320
aircraft from certain at certain angles

2141
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:21,920
as well

2142
01:18:27,030 --> 01:18:24,480
excellent well that kind of leads into

2143
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:27,040
what we know about the

2144
01:18:32,310 --> 01:18:30,719
analysis done by or both di55 and jarek

2145
01:18:34,310 --> 01:18:32,320
at two different times in two different

2146
01:18:36,149 --> 01:18:34,320
years so does anyone else want to kick

2147
01:18:37,830 --> 01:18:36,159
that off with when the

2148
01:18:38,950 --> 01:18:37,840
in fact let's address this first because

2149
01:18:40,950 --> 01:18:38,960
they think this is important there's

2150
01:18:43,510 --> 01:18:40,960
been a lot of talk about why it took a

2151
01:18:46,550 --> 01:18:43,520
month for the images to get from

2152
01:18:47,830 --> 01:18:46,560
the scottish daily record or from craig

2153
01:18:50,149 --> 01:18:47,840
up in

2154
01:18:51,910 --> 01:18:50,159
trivia castle down to the mod because we

2155
01:18:54,550 --> 01:18:51,920
know they received them on september the

2156
01:18:57,350 --> 01:18:54,560
10th if they were taken on august the

2157
01:18:59,110 --> 01:18:57,360
4th then just over a month so david i

2158
01:19:00,709 --> 01:18:59,120
think you're probably best suited for

2159
01:19:02,790 --> 01:19:00,719
yeah well i think this is quite an easy

2160
01:19:04,310 --> 01:19:02,800
one to address in that they were taken

2161
01:19:06,149 --> 01:19:04,320
and there was obviously a discussion

2162
01:19:07,990 --> 01:19:06,159
between the lads who had taken them this

2163
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:08,000
is a group of six chefs who all knew

2164
01:19:11,350 --> 01:19:10,080
each other who were talking about the um

2165
01:19:13,590 --> 01:19:11,360
what had happened

2166
01:19:16,310 --> 01:19:13,600
um my information is that one of them i

2167
01:19:19,110 --> 01:19:16,320
had a car drove the one who'd taken the

2168
01:19:21,030 --> 01:19:19,120
pictures to glasgow in person to deliver

2169
01:19:23,030 --> 01:19:21,040
the the images to the daily record

2170
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:23,040
you've then got a period of time in

2171
01:19:28,790 --> 01:19:25,440
which the daily record are looking at

2172
01:19:30,229 --> 01:19:28,800
them the picture editor at the time um i

2173
01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:30,239
know that the news editor who would

2174
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:31,920
normally have

2175
01:19:35,510 --> 01:19:33,360
shared had talked about this with the

2176
01:19:37,350 --> 01:19:35,520
picture editor was on the annual leave

2177
01:19:40,149 --> 01:19:37,360
so basically it was left to the picture

2178
01:19:42,550 --> 01:19:40,159
ready to decide what to do we know from

2179
01:19:45,350 --> 01:19:42,560
from craig lindsay's testimony that um

2180
01:19:48,070 --> 01:19:45,360
eventually they the picture editor rang

2181
01:19:49,510 --> 01:19:48,080
um rang him over at petrievi castle

2182
01:19:51,350 --> 01:19:49,520
there was then this sort of chewing and

2183
01:19:52,709 --> 01:19:51,360
throwing about well um you want to

2184
01:19:55,430 --> 01:19:52,719
comment on it but i need to see the

2185
01:19:57,350 --> 01:19:55,440
photos first he then went away and ran

2186
01:19:59,189 --> 01:19:57,360
off the um the print that andrew was

2187
01:20:01,510 --> 01:19:59,199
talking about don't know how long that

2188
01:20:03,510 --> 01:20:01,520
took but then that got sent over to by

2189
01:20:05,590 --> 01:20:03,520
train to edinburgh where it got

2190
01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:05,600
collected by a photographer whose name

2191
01:20:11,189 --> 01:20:08,400
is on the envelope who i've spoken to

2192
01:20:12,390 --> 01:20:11,199
um he then took it to raf petrievi

2193
01:20:14,790 --> 01:20:12,400
castle then

2194
01:20:16,709 --> 01:20:14,800
craig had to see it show it round talk

2195
01:20:19,350 --> 01:20:16,719
to the guys on the ufo desk do a

2196
01:20:21,590 --> 01:20:19,360
photocopy of it send it down to london

2197
01:20:23,590 --> 01:20:21,600
london then had to get back to craig and

2198
01:20:25,350 --> 01:20:23,600
say can we get the negatives craig had

2199
01:20:27,270 --> 01:20:25,360
to go back to the daily record get the

2200
01:20:29,510 --> 01:20:27,280
negative sent to london we don't know

2201
01:20:31,189 --> 01:20:29,520
how long that took they then had to sort

2202
01:20:33,270 --> 01:20:31,199
of share it with jerry jarrett had to

2203
01:20:35,270 --> 01:20:33,280
produce a report a report had to go to

2204
01:20:37,270 --> 01:20:35,280
sec a s and that's the point of which

2205
01:20:38,629 --> 01:20:37,280
sec a s then thought oh my god this is

2206
01:20:40,149 --> 01:20:38,639
coming out in the daily record they've

2207
01:20:41,910 --> 01:20:40,159
got the exclusive we better tell the

2208
01:20:44,470 --> 01:20:41,920
defense minister because he'll need to

2209
01:20:45,990 --> 01:20:44,480
know um tom king it was at the time

2210
01:20:48,310 --> 01:20:46,000
he'll need to know when this gets into

2211
01:20:49,750 --> 01:20:48,320
the media uh what to say

2212
01:20:51,510 --> 01:20:49,760
so that to me

2213
01:20:54,310 --> 01:20:51,520
between the 4th of august and the 11th

2214
01:20:56,310 --> 01:20:54,320
of september fits perfectly

2215
01:20:57,750 --> 01:20:56,320
yep makes perfect sense but

2216
01:20:58,709 --> 01:20:57,760
what's the mystery about that i don't

2217
01:21:00,310 --> 01:20:58,719
know

2218
01:21:01,830 --> 01:21:00,320
no no of course i think that's great

2219
01:21:04,550 --> 01:21:01,840
that we just laid that out i mean again

2220
01:21:07,750 --> 01:21:04,560
it's it does make sense and we don't

2221
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:07,760
know but it it fits in in my opinion um

2222
01:21:11,510 --> 01:21:09,840
so let's talk about the two analysis

2223
01:21:13,110 --> 01:21:11,520
jarek we know did the first analysis in

2224
01:21:17,270 --> 01:21:13,120
1990

2225
01:21:19,350 --> 01:21:17,280
55 in 92 and then also in 92 i think is

2226
01:21:21,189 --> 01:21:19,360
when the air attache to washington got

2227
01:21:24,870 --> 01:21:21,199
involved and this is where the story

2228
01:21:26,470 --> 01:21:24,880
gets uh a little bit crazy again so what

2229
01:21:28,550 --> 01:21:26,480
i should say

2230
01:21:31,270 --> 01:21:28,560
you said di55 did the investigation in

2231
01:21:33,590 --> 01:21:31,280
1992 my information is they were on site

2232
01:21:35,669 --> 01:21:33,600
um talking to the chefs within a couple

2233
01:21:38,790 --> 01:21:35,679
of weeks of it coming to the to the

2234
01:21:40,629 --> 01:21:38,800
attention of the mod which i i think i

2235
01:21:43,189 --> 01:21:40,639
was talking about the photo analysis was

2236
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:43,199
done twice yeah that was a follow-up one

2237
01:21:45,030 --> 01:21:43,920
i think

2238
01:21:47,590 --> 01:21:45,040
that's right when they were talking

2239
01:21:49,590 --> 01:21:47,600
about taking the images to uh america to

2240
01:21:51,110 --> 01:21:49,600
a meeting at washington yeah that was

2241
01:21:52,390 --> 01:21:51,120
nice so let's talk about that yeah let's

2242
01:21:55,910 --> 01:21:52,400
talk about that first one the jarrett

2243
01:21:57,350 --> 01:21:55,920
analysis in 1990 and then if we can talk

2244
01:22:00,550 --> 01:21:57,360
about what we know or what you know

2245
01:22:04,470 --> 01:22:00,560
david about the di-55 investigation

2246
01:22:06,709 --> 01:22:04,480
in 1990 yeah um my understanding is two

2247
01:22:08,709 --> 01:22:06,719
um um

2248
01:22:11,350 --> 01:22:08,719
officers spooks whatever you want to

2249
01:22:12,950 --> 01:22:11,360
call them from di-55 which as we know it

2250
01:22:14,709 --> 01:22:12,960
was was the branch of the defense

2251
01:22:16,709 --> 01:22:14,719
intelligence staff that did the ufo

2252
01:22:19,669 --> 01:22:16,719
investigations the field investigations

2253
01:22:21,430 --> 01:22:19,679
anyway um visited uh pick lockery

2254
01:22:24,390 --> 01:22:21,440
interviewed the witnesses maybe went to

2255
01:22:25,110 --> 01:22:24,400
the site did a lot of work on it is the

2256
01:22:27,510 --> 01:22:25,120
uh

2257
01:22:29,430 --> 01:22:27,520
phrase that was used to me um

2258
01:22:30,950 --> 01:22:29,440
and they obviously i think came to

2259
01:22:32,870 --> 01:22:30,960
pretty much the same conclusions of

2260
01:22:35,189 --> 01:22:32,880
jarek that this was an object in the sky

2261
01:22:36,790 --> 01:22:35,199
it wasn't a hoax you know um

2262
01:22:39,189 --> 01:22:36,800
obviously

2263
01:22:41,030 --> 01:22:39,199
what that means i don't know because um

2264
01:22:43,030 --> 01:22:41,040
we know that um some intelligence

2265
01:22:44,550 --> 01:22:43,040
agencies have been taken in by hoaxes

2266
01:22:46,390 --> 01:22:44,560
plenty of times i mean think of weapons

2267
01:22:48,709 --> 01:22:46,400
of mass destruction for instance you

2268
01:22:50,229 --> 01:22:48,719
know sometimes people tell them things

2269
01:22:51,590 --> 01:22:50,239
and they are inclined to believe in

2270
01:22:53,830 --> 01:22:51,600
something

2271
01:22:55,430 --> 01:22:53,840
and they draw conclusions that are false

2272
01:22:56,709 --> 01:22:55,440
they're only human beings like us it

2273
01:22:58,950 --> 01:22:56,719
doesn't mean to say that just because

2274
01:23:00,790 --> 01:22:58,960
they are intelligence officers that they

2275
01:23:03,669 --> 01:23:00,800
simply cannot be fooled i mean i will

2276
01:23:04,709 --> 01:23:03,679
make that point but um they do seem to

2277
01:23:06,870 --> 01:23:04,719
have sort of reached the same

2278
01:23:08,950 --> 01:23:06,880
conclusions that jarek did and there was

2279
01:23:10,629 --> 01:23:08,960
a lot of sort of concern about this and

2280
01:23:13,430 --> 01:23:10,639
the other um

2281
01:23:15,990 --> 01:23:13,440
bit of context i should add was at the

2282
01:23:18,470 --> 01:23:16,000
time shortly after this um there was

2283
01:23:20,950 --> 01:23:18,480
massive amount of speculation about this

2284
01:23:23,830 --> 01:23:20,960
mythical or whatever you want to call it

2285
01:23:25,830 --> 01:23:23,840
um hypersonic plane aurora in the um

2286
01:23:29,510 --> 01:23:25,840
both the local media the scotsman did a

2287
01:23:31,350 --> 01:23:29,520
big expose early i think in 1991 where

2288
01:23:33,189 --> 01:23:31,360
it was interviewing a an air traffic

2289
01:23:35,350 --> 01:23:33,199
controller who said he'd seen some

2290
01:23:37,590 --> 01:23:35,360
object leaving raf macrohanish at some

2291
01:23:39,030 --> 01:23:37,600
incredible speed and he'd made a call to

2292
01:23:40,629 --> 01:23:39,040
the air base and said what the hell was

2293
01:23:42,470 --> 01:23:40,639
that and he was told basically keep your

2294
01:23:45,030 --> 01:23:42,480
mouth shut you didn't see anything and

2295
01:23:46,629 --> 01:23:45,040
the scotsman did this story it triggered

2296
01:23:48,390 --> 01:23:46,639
off a whole bunch of questions in the

2297
01:23:49,830 --> 01:23:48,400
house of commons from scottish mps

2298
01:23:53,189 --> 01:23:49,840
saying have the americans been

2299
01:23:55,910 --> 01:23:53,199
authorized to fly and land um a

2300
01:23:58,229 --> 01:23:55,920
reconnaissance aircraft in the in in uk

2301
01:24:01,030 --> 01:23:58,239
um territory and obviously this they

2302
01:24:02,709 --> 01:24:01,040
denied it but i got i got the files

2303
01:24:04,470 --> 01:24:02,719
released in 2008 where they're

2304
01:24:06,950 --> 01:24:04,480
addressing the questions and the the

2305
01:24:09,430 --> 01:24:06,960
di-55 are saying in the background tell

2306
01:24:10,870 --> 01:24:09,440
the mps this but it wouldn't surprise us

2307
01:24:12,149 --> 01:24:10,880
at all if there was something flying

2308
01:24:14,629 --> 01:24:12,159
around like that

2309
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:14,639
across a really really odd place because

2310
01:24:18,229 --> 01:24:16,400
it's right at the bottom of the the

2311
01:24:20,550 --> 01:24:18,239
bottom of the kintaya peninsula it's

2312
01:24:22,870 --> 01:24:20,560
basically it's seawood side is the is

2313
01:24:24,870 --> 01:24:22,880
the atlantic ocean so aircraft could fly

2314
01:24:26,950 --> 01:24:24,880
in over the sea and nobody would see

2315
01:24:29,030 --> 01:24:26,960
them land apart from anybody on the base

2316
01:24:30,709 --> 01:24:29,040
of course the base itself although it

2317
01:24:32,390 --> 01:24:30,719
was winding down it was never anywhere

2318
01:24:34,709 --> 01:24:32,400
where the based aircraft in terms of

2319
01:24:36,790 --> 01:24:34,719
squadrons since the second world war it

2320
01:24:38,790 --> 01:24:36,800
was actually a place where the us the us

2321
01:24:40,629 --> 01:24:38,800
navy had a kind of logic kind of

2322
01:24:42,390 --> 01:24:40,639
presence there they had seals that were

2323
01:24:45,030 --> 01:24:42,400
based there they were even had bunkers

2324
01:24:46,629 --> 01:24:45,040
for nuclear weapons for storage there so

2325
01:24:48,149 --> 01:24:46,639
there was all kind of sneaky bikie kind

2326
01:24:50,149 --> 01:24:48,159
of like stuff going on there where they

2327
01:24:52,390 --> 01:24:50,159
would do exercises they would do things

2328
01:24:54,870 --> 01:24:52,400
about trying to infiltrate an aircraft

2329
01:24:56,470 --> 01:24:54,880
from an airfield from the sea at night

2330
01:24:59,350 --> 01:24:56,480
because it was an ideal place for such

2331
01:25:01,270 --> 01:24:59,360
exercises but also to have these special

2332
01:25:03,110 --> 01:25:01,280
weapons there which they would do

2333
01:25:04,629 --> 01:25:03,120
probably exercises trying to guard or

2334
01:25:06,470 --> 01:25:04,639
maybe try to infiltrate all this kind of

2335
01:25:08,629 --> 01:25:06,480
stuff and then you've got the aspect

2336
01:25:11,350 --> 01:25:08,639
about secret aircraft as he said there

2337
01:25:14,790 --> 01:25:11,360
where there are rumors which i i heard

2338
01:25:18,070 --> 01:25:14,800
in the late 80s as early as that about

2339
01:25:20,310 --> 01:25:18,080
stuff going into into mac and yet nobody

2340
01:25:24,070 --> 01:25:20,320
really knowing what they were so those

2341
01:25:29,430 --> 01:25:26,470
david's defense source as well

2342
01:25:30,950 --> 01:25:29,440
mentioned to us the possibility that

2343
01:25:33,750 --> 01:25:30,960
this thing was actually on a training

2344
01:25:37,110 --> 01:25:33,760
exercise over the continent at one point

2345
01:25:39,669 --> 01:25:37,120
um going into belgium

2346
01:25:41,189 --> 01:25:39,679
i was told it was uh it was flying from

2347
01:25:44,790 --> 01:25:41,199
raf macrophanish and it was being

2348
01:25:46,229 --> 01:25:44,800
escorted by british and american jets

2349
01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:46,239
and there was there was a sighting of a

2350
01:25:51,910 --> 01:25:49,440
diamond over yupin a town in belgium in

2351
01:25:54,149 --> 01:25:51,920
december 1989. you know it's only eight

2352
01:25:56,870 --> 01:25:54,159
months difference um people want to look

2353
01:25:59,189 --> 01:25:56,880
that up the there's this imagery

2354
01:26:00,629 --> 01:25:59,199
seen by the witness and it's you know

2355
01:26:02,070 --> 01:26:00,639
it's remarkable

2356
01:26:03,669 --> 01:26:02,080
what i should say is as well when you

2357
01:26:05,669 --> 01:26:03,679
look at these parliamentary questions

2358
01:26:07,430 --> 01:26:05,679
they never lie

2359
01:26:09,270 --> 01:26:07,440
they will not lie in case they get

2360
01:26:10,470 --> 01:26:09,280
caught out it's just how they answer the

2361
01:26:13,270 --> 01:26:10,480
question

2362
01:26:15,270 --> 01:26:13,280
is very very careful and and i noticed

2363
01:26:17,990 --> 01:26:15,280
that on the question specifically about

2364
01:26:19,910 --> 01:26:18,000
macrohanish it's almost a sigh of relief

2365
01:26:22,310 --> 01:26:19,920
in one of them that they didn't ask us

2366
01:26:24,149 --> 01:26:22,320
about 1990 they're asking us this is

2367
01:26:26,149 --> 01:26:24,159
where mps always make the mistake they

2368
01:26:28,149 --> 01:26:26,159
asked the wrong questions and the the

2369
01:26:32,149 --> 01:26:28,159
mps had said has anything been flying

2370
01:26:33,510 --> 01:26:32,159
experimental from macrohanish from 1991

2371
01:26:35,669 --> 01:26:33,520
and there's almost like this sense of

2372
01:26:37,510 --> 01:26:35,679
relief no there wasn't because it's gone

2373
01:26:38,390 --> 01:26:37,520
by nineteen years i can tell the truth

2374
01:26:40,070 --> 01:26:38,400
yeah

2375
01:26:42,790 --> 01:26:40,080
so they don't lie he's just a very

2376
01:26:44,550 --> 01:26:42,800
economical with the truth

2377
01:26:46,149 --> 01:26:44,560
so yeah here's a great question subman

2378
01:26:47,590 --> 01:26:46,159
stan says if he's flying from scotland

2379
01:26:51,830 --> 01:26:47,600
to belgium why did it stop for 10

2380
01:26:55,189 --> 01:26:53,350
well it would be speculative as well but

2381
01:26:57,430 --> 01:26:55,199
we've considered the hypothesis that if

2382
01:26:59,350 --> 01:26:57,440
it's a prototype then maybe it

2383
01:27:01,830 --> 01:26:59,360
malfunctioned briefly

2384
01:27:04,149 --> 01:27:01,840
there could be a numerous reasons why

2385
01:27:05,750 --> 01:27:04,159
think of the cash landrum case from 1980

2386
01:27:08,390 --> 01:27:05,760
and the thing though in america that was

2387
01:27:11,030 --> 01:27:08,400
was supposedly at um i believe a diamond

2388
01:27:13,189 --> 01:27:11,040
as well which was supposedly escorted by

2389
01:27:16,830 --> 01:27:13,199
a group of helicopters not just one or

2390
01:27:18,229 --> 01:27:16,840
two but you know sort of 20 or 33

2391
01:27:19,590 --> 01:27:18,239
yeah also

2392
01:27:21,110 --> 01:27:19,600
don't forget also there was the chris

2393
01:27:22,070 --> 01:27:21,120
gibson sighting which i was going to

2394
01:27:24,629 --> 01:27:22,080
bring that

2395
01:27:26,550 --> 01:27:24,639
year of a very similar object that he

2396
01:27:27,910 --> 01:27:26,560
saw from an oil rig over the north sea

2397
01:27:29,590 --> 01:27:27,920
and he was a member of the royal

2398
01:27:31,110 --> 01:27:29,600
observer corps and he knew exactly he

2399
01:27:33,189 --> 01:27:31,120
knew straight away this is not something

2400
01:27:36,870 --> 01:27:33,199
i'm familiar with this triangular object

2401
01:27:38,709 --> 01:27:36,880
being escorted by f-111s and the kc-135

2402
01:27:40,310 --> 01:27:38,719
tanker yeah and he was an aircraft

2403
01:27:41,590 --> 01:27:40,320
recognition expert because he's been

2404
01:27:44,310 --> 01:27:41,600
involved

2405
01:27:45,750 --> 01:27:44,320
um like a recognition team

2406
01:27:47,910 --> 01:27:45,760
against other teams from around the

2407
01:27:49,430 --> 01:27:47,920
world he was really really good at what

2408
01:27:51,750 --> 01:27:49,440
he did and then

2409
01:27:57,910 --> 01:27:51,760
the witness wasn't

2410
01:28:00,470 --> 01:27:57,920
instant that the craft was going to the

2411
01:28:02,390 --> 01:28:00,480
continent he was just saying the craft

2412
01:28:03,590 --> 01:28:02,400
was being used in that period to go to

2413
01:28:04,790 --> 01:28:03,600
the continents it wasn't necessarily

2414
01:28:07,030 --> 01:28:04,800
that day i mean it could have been an

2415
01:28:09,189 --> 01:28:07,040
engine test you know for that day and

2416
01:28:11,350 --> 01:28:09,199
and the ignition over the continent was

2417
01:28:12,709 --> 01:28:11,360
on a completely different day um you

2418
01:28:14,470 --> 01:28:12,719
know when you've got i think it's seven

2419
01:28:16,709 --> 01:28:14,480
miles long isn't it macaranis and it was

2420
01:28:18,310 --> 01:28:16,719
the space shuttle aboard

2421
01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:18,320
site over on this side of the atlantic

2422
01:28:23,430 --> 01:28:20,400
so you know you can land absolutely

2423
01:28:24,709 --> 01:28:23,440
anything there in secrecy and in safety

2424
01:28:25,910 --> 01:28:24,719
so well you can certainly land something

2425
01:28:27,750 --> 01:28:25,920
on the western end of the runway and

2426
01:28:29,110 --> 01:28:27,760
nobody on the eastern would see it

2427
01:28:35,030 --> 01:28:29,120
perhaps we should have paul mccartney

2428
01:28:40,870 --> 01:28:38,629
have kim tyre i didn't know no way

2429
01:28:43,030 --> 01:28:40,880
let's touch upon this eratasha

2430
01:28:45,430 --> 01:28:43,040
to washington and the confusion between

2431
01:28:47,110 --> 01:28:45,440
and even the conversation where members

2432
01:28:48,550 --> 01:28:47,120
of defense intelligence actually flew

2433
01:28:49,910 --> 01:28:48,560
out to washington for a meeting at the

2434
01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:49,920
pentagon

2435
01:28:53,270 --> 01:28:51,840
all over a hoax i mean yeah what can we

2436
01:28:57,189 --> 01:28:53,280
say about that and why did the heir

2437
01:29:00,550 --> 01:28:57,199
attach a initially think it was a hoax

2438
01:29:02,310 --> 01:29:00,560
because he hadn't seen the analysis

2439
01:29:03,590 --> 01:29:02,320
tell me that he hadn't seen the analysis

2440
01:29:05,910 --> 01:29:03,600
he'd just seen the image and he thought

2441
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:05,920
well nothing like nothing that object in

2442
01:29:10,310 --> 01:29:07,840
that thing couldn't possibly fly that

2443
01:29:12,390 --> 01:29:10,320
was his it's got to be a hoax you know

2444
01:29:13,990 --> 01:29:12,400
so he called it i love the phrase it is

2445
01:29:15,669 --> 01:29:14,000
it's like the aerial equivalent of the

2446
01:29:18,149 --> 01:29:15,679
loch ness monster which i thought was a

2447
01:29:19,590 --> 01:29:18,159
brilliant quote but in the memo that he

2448
01:29:22,149 --> 01:29:19,600
wrote which i've got here i got this

2449
01:29:24,470 --> 01:29:22,159
into freedom of information in 2006 he

2450
01:29:26,550 --> 01:29:24,480
says very clearly they refer to it as a

2451
01:29:28,149 --> 01:29:26,560
possible research vehicle flying in the

2452
01:29:30,470 --> 01:29:28,159
uk airspace

2453
01:29:31,910 --> 01:29:30,480
and he says the photograph the one we're

2454
01:29:35,030 --> 01:29:31,920
talking about is being brought to the

2455
01:29:37,590 --> 01:29:35,040
united states in january that's 1992

2456
01:29:39,350 --> 01:29:37,600
by so that both intelligence communities

2457
01:29:41,189 --> 01:29:39,360
can look at it together so the defense

2458
01:29:43,189 --> 01:29:41,199
intelligence staff um

2459
01:29:45,990 --> 01:29:43,199
people from this country

2460
01:29:47,189 --> 01:29:46,000
took the photographs over to the uk i

2461
01:29:48,709 --> 01:29:47,199
mean they didn't have some i don't know

2462
01:29:50,550 --> 01:29:48,719
whether they had internet or anything at

2463
01:29:52,950 --> 01:29:50,560
that time they had some kind of

2464
01:29:54,709 --> 01:29:52,960
communication systems clearly

2465
01:29:56,870 --> 01:29:54,719
yeah they wanted to look at the actual

2466
01:29:59,510 --> 01:29:56,880
images that the you know the prints and

2467
01:30:00,950 --> 01:29:59,520
it says the view um they want to look at

2468
01:30:02,709 --> 01:30:00,960
it together and i think this was the dr

2469
01:30:04,629 --> 01:30:02,719
the defense intelligence agency and the

2470
01:30:06,550 --> 01:30:04,639
cia that were involved there was a

2471
01:30:08,470 --> 01:30:06,560
meeting in washington specifically look

2472
01:30:10,070 --> 01:30:08,480
at these photographs and it says the

2473
01:30:12,310 --> 01:30:10,080
view from the area in washington is that

2474
01:30:14,629 --> 01:30:12,320
the photograph is probably a spoof and

2475
01:30:17,590 --> 01:30:14,639
is another chapter in the ongoing aurora

2476
01:30:18,709 --> 01:30:17,600
saga so obviously they it was all mixed

2477
01:30:20,470 --> 01:30:18,719
up with this

2478
01:30:21,669 --> 01:30:20,480
belief that they were flying this thing

2479
01:30:23,590 --> 01:30:21,679
around but

2480
01:30:25,830 --> 01:30:23,600
if you if you look at the the thing what

2481
01:30:27,669 --> 01:30:25,840
else they say uh this guy was dragged

2482
01:30:29,510 --> 01:30:27,679
into this office by this three-star

2483
01:30:31,669 --> 01:30:29,520
general and somebody else had their had

2484
01:30:33,110 --> 01:30:31,679
their office searched under with it with

2485
01:30:35,110 --> 01:30:33,120
an armed guard

2486
01:30:37,270 --> 01:30:35,120
to check whether whether they got these

2487
01:30:39,189 --> 01:30:37,280
photographs in the drawer or something

2488
01:30:41,270 --> 01:30:39,199
you can't make this up and this three

2489
01:30:42,550 --> 01:30:41,280
three star general was furious because

2490
01:30:44,390 --> 01:30:42,560
he he

2491
01:30:46,470 --> 01:30:44,400
because this is the complicated thing

2492
01:30:48,229 --> 01:30:46,480
the british defensive because they

2493
01:30:50,950 --> 01:30:48,239
they're all compartmentalized and no one

2494
01:30:53,350 --> 01:30:50,960
will talk to anyone else the di had sent

2495
01:30:55,110 --> 01:30:53,360
the images to the cia the cia had then

2496
01:30:57,189 --> 01:30:55,120
sent them to the pentagon there and

2497
01:30:59,990 --> 01:30:57,199
stealth unit whoever dealt with stealth

2498
01:31:02,390 --> 01:31:00,000
aircraft but didn't tell them that the

2499
01:31:03,510 --> 01:31:02,400
images had come from britain

2500
01:31:05,830 --> 01:31:03,520
so

2501
01:31:07,590 --> 01:31:05,840
this guy this three-star general

2502
01:31:11,510 --> 01:31:07,600
came to the conclusion that this was an

2503
01:31:13,830 --> 01:31:11,520
raf stealth aircraft that we built using

2504
01:31:15,990 --> 01:31:13,840
technology that they'd shared with us in

2505
01:31:17,990 --> 01:31:16,000
confidence someone had photographed it

2506
01:31:20,149 --> 01:31:18,000
an american i think and

2507
01:31:21,510 --> 01:31:20,159
and it was like how dare you fly

2508
01:31:23,669 --> 01:31:21,520
something like this without telling us

2509
01:31:25,830 --> 01:31:23,679
about it and and so there atashi had

2510
01:31:26,870 --> 01:31:25,840
said no no no

2511
01:31:28,709 --> 01:31:26,880
it's not

2512
01:31:30,709 --> 01:31:28,719
that the sauce is out we sent the

2513
01:31:32,470 --> 01:31:30,719
picture to you to say is it one of yours

2514
01:31:34,709 --> 01:31:32,480
basically so there was this high level

2515
01:31:36,070 --> 01:31:34,719
sort of complete confusion this is what

2516
01:31:38,390 --> 01:31:36,080
makes me laugh when people talk about

2517
01:31:40,470 --> 01:31:38,400
the intelligence services you know

2518
01:31:42,310 --> 01:31:40,480
they're not intelligent at all they're

2519
01:31:44,070 --> 01:31:42,320
all so full of their own

2520
01:31:45,669 --> 01:31:44,080
self-importance and all these levels of

2521
01:31:48,149 --> 01:31:45,679
security that they don't even talk to

2522
01:31:50,070 --> 01:31:48,159
each other so this obviously went on in

2523
01:31:52,310 --> 01:31:50,080
1992.

2524
01:31:55,110 --> 01:31:52,320
i actually uh messaged

2525
01:31:56,629 --> 01:31:55,120
the dia the cia just completely ignores

2526
01:31:59,590 --> 01:31:56,639
everything i've ever sent them so uh

2527
01:32:04,149 --> 01:31:59,600
there's a no surprise but the dia did

2528
01:32:05,350 --> 01:32:04,159
reply to me in uh september 2021 um so

2529
01:32:08,390 --> 01:32:05,360
we're coming up on

2530
01:32:10,790 --> 01:32:08,400
11 months now um and i did ask for a

2531
01:32:12,390 --> 01:32:10,800
clarification last month and they said

2532
01:32:14,629 --> 01:32:12,400
their uh responses to freedom of

2533
01:32:15,310 --> 01:32:14,639
information act requests are running at

2534
01:32:17,270 --> 01:32:15,320
uh

2535
01:32:19,270 --> 01:32:17,280
530 days

2536
01:32:21,189 --> 01:32:19,280
uh on average so uh i've got about

2537
01:32:22,470 --> 01:32:21,199
another five five and a half months

2538
01:32:24,310 --> 01:32:22,480
before they tell me they've not got

2539
01:32:26,149 --> 01:32:24,320
anything so uh you might you might get

2540
01:32:28,470 --> 01:32:26,159
that in time for the first of january

2541
01:32:31,750 --> 01:32:28,480
2076 matthew when they release

2542
01:32:37,830 --> 01:32:33,669
gift wrap

2543
01:32:41,030 --> 01:32:37,840
speaking of foyers um i've followed the

2544
01:32:42,870 --> 01:32:41,040
records for uh vmm vmm23 which is the

2545
01:32:45,110 --> 01:32:42,880
bulldogs it's a harrier squadron but

2546
01:32:46,470 --> 01:32:45,120
it's a us marine corps squadron now

2547
01:32:47,910 --> 01:32:46,480
people have also mentioned about the

2548
01:32:49,590 --> 01:32:47,920
harry as in and dave you mentioned

2549
01:32:51,430 --> 01:32:49,600
there's one uh could have been british

2550
01:32:53,189 --> 01:32:51,440
and one could have been american now

2551
01:32:55,590 --> 01:32:53,199
when you talk about american that's the

2552
01:32:57,750 --> 01:32:55,600
av-8 that's their version of the harriet

2553
01:32:59,669 --> 01:32:57,760
and they've operated them since the 70s

2554
01:33:01,590 --> 01:32:59,679
but the the ones that were flying in

2555
01:33:03,430 --> 01:33:01,600
1990 were

2556
01:33:04,709 --> 01:33:03,440
they're not based on aircraft carriers

2557
01:33:06,149 --> 01:33:04,719
per se because people said well you

2558
01:33:08,390 --> 01:33:06,159
don't see them in aircraft carriers and

2559
01:33:09,669 --> 01:33:08,400
that's true you don't say one of the big

2560
01:33:11,350 --> 01:33:09,679
aircraft carriers that the americans

2561
01:33:12,790 --> 01:33:11,360
have they have they're on what they call

2562
01:33:15,830 --> 01:33:12,800
the assault carriers they're much

2563
01:33:18,870 --> 01:33:15,840
smaller they're more like um what uh hms

2564
01:33:21,110 --> 01:33:18,880
arc royal lusty and um invincible used

2565
01:33:22,950 --> 01:33:21,120
to be uh like the time of the falklands

2566
01:33:24,790 --> 01:33:22,960
they're very small carriers but they're

2567
01:33:27,350 --> 01:33:24,800
up they can operate harriers and

2568
01:33:29,430 --> 01:33:27,360
helicopters from these and the us marine

2569
01:33:31,189 --> 01:33:29,440
corps do have several squadrons of these

2570
01:33:33,910 --> 01:33:31,199
aircraft now people have said well there

2571
01:33:36,550 --> 01:33:33,920
were no ones near the uk and that's

2572
01:33:38,870 --> 01:33:36,560
actually in effect strictly true however

2573
01:33:42,149 --> 01:33:38,880
at the time of this incident the uss

2574
01:33:43,910 --> 01:33:42,159
saipan the lha lha-2 was actually

2575
01:33:46,310 --> 01:33:43,920
operating off the west coast of africa

2576
01:33:47,350 --> 01:33:46,320
and there was an operation there to

2577
01:33:49,189 --> 01:33:47,360
rescue

2578
01:33:50,390 --> 01:33:49,199
u.s embassy staff from liberia because

2579
01:33:53,669 --> 01:33:50,400
there was something kicking off down

2580
01:33:55,510 --> 01:33:53,679
there so um this squadron uh but the

2581
01:33:57,189 --> 01:33:55,520
bulldogs was actually operating from or

2582
01:33:58,790 --> 01:33:57,199
deployed on um

2583
01:34:01,350 --> 01:33:58,800
saipan which is one of these assault

2584
01:34:03,030 --> 01:34:01,360
carriers so therefore it's not beyond

2585
01:34:05,510 --> 01:34:03,040
the possibility that a couple of

2586
01:34:07,750 --> 01:34:05,520
aircraft were detached from saipan out

2587
01:34:09,430 --> 01:34:07,760
of a complement of about maybe eight uh

2588
01:34:11,189 --> 01:34:09,440
sort of aircraft onboard the on board

2589
01:34:13,669 --> 01:34:11,199
the carrier to

2590
01:34:15,270 --> 01:34:13,679
the uk somewhere um it could be

2591
01:34:16,390 --> 01:34:15,280
mildenhall it could be lake and east it

2592
01:34:17,510 --> 01:34:16,400
could have been anywhere else it could

2593
01:34:19,750 --> 01:34:17,520
be makaha

2594
01:34:21,430 --> 01:34:19,760
so

2595
01:34:23,270 --> 01:34:21,440
in terms of the spotting fraternity back

2596
01:34:25,189 --> 01:34:23,280
then i've looked through various

2597
01:34:25,990 --> 01:34:25,199
enthusiasts magazines because i used to

2598
01:34:28,070 --> 01:34:26,000
be a member of some of those

2599
01:34:30,229 --> 01:34:28,080
organizations back then and i can't find

2600
01:34:32,229 --> 01:34:30,239
anything about u.s marine corps hurries

2601
01:34:34,550 --> 01:34:32,239
that anybody had seen or reported and

2602
01:34:36,310 --> 01:34:34,560
believe me if people got you know those

2603
01:34:37,910 --> 01:34:36,320
are kind of jungle telegraph that used

2604
01:34:39,910 --> 01:34:37,920
to operate around there and if anything

2605
01:34:42,149 --> 01:34:39,920
strange came in the country people

2606
01:34:43,030 --> 01:34:42,159
guaranteed would know about it and yet

2607
01:34:44,310 --> 01:34:43,040
this

2608
01:34:46,310 --> 01:34:44,320
nothing

2609
01:34:49,430 --> 01:34:46,320
yeah i've got a point here can graham

2610
01:34:51,350 --> 01:34:49,440
say anything about mallet blow 90-2

2611
01:34:53,990 --> 01:34:51,360
yeah it's an ex it's an air exercise it

2612
01:34:56,149 --> 01:34:54,000
would um it used to kick off around

2613
01:34:59,109 --> 01:34:56,159
well twice ago because uh 90-2 would be

2614
01:35:00,790 --> 01:34:59,119
the second iteration of it that year um

2615
01:35:02,870 --> 01:35:00,800
it it concentrated on various places in

2616
01:35:04,950 --> 01:35:02,880
the uk malibu would often happen over

2617
01:35:06,149 --> 01:35:04,960
northumberland where i used to live and

2618
01:35:08,470 --> 01:35:06,159
you'd see aircraft going over the

2619
01:35:10,870 --> 01:35:08,480
october ranges at the lower level um is

2620
01:35:13,270 --> 01:35:10,880
this the kind of malibu exercise well

2621
01:35:15,430 --> 01:35:13,280
having a very secret aircraft operating

2622
01:35:18,629 --> 01:35:15,440
in an exercise like this would have been

2623
01:35:21,030 --> 01:35:18,639
probably unprecedented um so you know it

2624
01:35:23,350 --> 01:35:21,040
was more for weapons testing uh for like

2625
01:35:25,910 --> 01:35:23,360
mock attacks against targets on bombing

2626
01:35:28,149 --> 01:35:25,920
ranges um and things like that that's

2627
01:35:30,070 --> 01:35:28,159
what mallet blow was there were various

2628
01:35:31,350 --> 01:35:30,080
exercises like that because also they

2629
01:35:33,750 --> 01:35:31,360
were still geared up to try and fight

2630
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:33,760
the russians so there was a lot of stuff

2631
01:35:38,550 --> 01:35:36,000
like that happening each year but um you

2632
01:35:40,149 --> 01:35:38,560
know maliblo wasn't

2633
01:35:42,709 --> 01:35:40,159
probably wasn't a factor in this case

2634
01:35:44,790 --> 01:35:42,719
nor was probably any other exercise this

2635
01:35:46,550 --> 01:35:44,800
if it was some kind of secret platform

2636
01:35:48,070 --> 01:35:46,560
this is some kind of one-off something

2637
01:35:50,390 --> 01:35:48,080
that was under under the radar

2638
01:35:52,550 --> 01:35:50,400
metaphorically i'm saying um and also

2639
01:35:54,149 --> 01:35:52,560
physically as well um it was something

2640
01:35:55,990 --> 01:35:54,159
that they didn't want people to see they

2641
01:35:57,830 --> 01:35:56,000
were testing it in a fairly remote part

2642
01:35:59,830 --> 01:35:57,840
of the highlands where they probably

2643
01:36:01,910 --> 01:35:59,840
thought they were gonna get away with it

2644
01:36:03,270 --> 01:36:01,920
um and somehow

2645
01:36:05,750 --> 01:36:03,280
you know one of those one million

2646
01:36:07,910 --> 01:36:05,760
chances somebody saw it and somebody had

2647
01:36:10,229 --> 01:36:07,920
a camera being able to photograph it i

2648
01:36:11,750 --> 01:36:10,239
wish when i was on those hillsides um

2649
01:36:13,910 --> 01:36:11,760
because i've spent countless hours and

2650
01:36:15,669 --> 01:36:13,920
days on hillsides taking pictures like

2651
01:36:17,669 --> 01:36:15,679
you saw before i wish i was in a

2652
01:36:19,510 --> 01:36:17,679
position to get get a picture like that

2653
01:36:21,430 --> 01:36:19,520
with a kit i used to carry around up on

2654
01:36:23,750 --> 01:36:21,440
hills with me with like you know 400 mil

2655
01:36:25,270 --> 01:36:23,760
lenses and all that kind of thing so uh

2656
01:36:27,750 --> 01:36:25,280
yeah well that was the phrase that was

2657
01:36:29,189 --> 01:36:27,760
used there was a one in a million chance

2658
01:36:31,590 --> 01:36:29,199
they were in the right place at the

2659
01:36:34,229 --> 01:36:31,600
right time to see what we saw yeah they

2660
01:36:35,270 --> 01:36:34,239
weren't meant to see it basically

2661
01:36:36,870 --> 01:36:35,280
and the different you can see the

2662
01:36:38,629 --> 01:36:36,880
difference between that picture and the

2663
01:36:41,270 --> 01:36:38,639
kind of stuff i used to take because i

2664
01:36:43,189 --> 01:36:41,280
used to get advanced notifications or

2665
01:36:44,950 --> 01:36:43,199
glenns that the jets were using

2666
01:36:46,390 --> 01:36:44,960
sometimes from the pilots

2667
01:36:48,149 --> 01:36:46,400
and they would they would you know maybe

2668
01:36:49,910 --> 01:36:48,159
text occasionally and say i'm going to

2669
01:36:51,750 --> 01:36:49,920
be in a certain place at a certain time

2670
01:36:53,030 --> 01:36:51,760
are you going to be there you know and

2671
01:36:55,189 --> 01:36:53,040
i'll get a picture and i'll send them

2672
01:36:56,870 --> 01:36:55,199
the picture so that's the kind of thing

2673
01:36:58,390 --> 01:36:56,880
that you know you had to do to get that

2674
01:37:00,790 --> 01:36:58,400
kind of shot but you could only be in

2675
01:37:03,590 --> 01:37:00,800
certain places to get that level of kind

2676
01:37:05,109 --> 01:37:03,600
of you know sort of um that image um

2677
01:37:06,390 --> 01:37:05,119
whereas somebody in the middle of

2678
01:37:07,830 --> 01:37:06,400
nowhere with a camera

2679
01:37:09,430 --> 01:37:07,840
yeah they're not expecting something

2680
01:37:11,270 --> 01:37:09,440
like that you can see that kind of image

2681
01:37:13,510 --> 01:37:11,280
appear because of the kind of

2682
01:37:14,629 --> 01:37:13,520
spontaneity of it it's not a planned

2683
01:37:18,390 --> 01:37:14,639
thing

2684
01:37:20,310 --> 01:37:18,400
of the big questions was can't you

2685
01:37:22,229 --> 01:37:20,320
interview the pilot and so i hope people

2686
01:37:23,990 --> 01:37:22,239
now appreciate that but in order to do

2687
01:37:25,750 --> 01:37:24,000
that we first got to find the plane the

2688
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:25,760
squadron and things like that it's a

2689
01:37:29,189 --> 01:37:27,280
it's such a

2690
01:37:29,990 --> 01:37:29,199
difficult process that's why this is all

2691
01:37:31,750 --> 01:37:30,000
right

2692
01:37:34,629 --> 01:37:31,760
exactly i mean the investigation just to

2693
01:37:36,950 --> 01:37:34,639
get to the photo part was

2694
01:37:38,709 --> 01:37:36,960
massive yeah i mean i noticed i've just

2695
01:37:40,149 --> 01:37:38,719
been skimming in and out of the

2696
01:37:41,910 --> 01:37:40,159
questions i noticed somebody was asking

2697
01:37:43,910 --> 01:37:41,920
why can't you speak to the people at the

2698
01:37:45,669 --> 01:37:43,920
daily record who dealt with it well i'm

2699
01:37:48,149 --> 01:37:45,679
afraid the day they picked the key

2700
01:37:50,950 --> 01:37:48,159
person the picture editor andy allen who

2701
01:37:52,629 --> 01:37:50,960
received the prince died in 2007. two

2702
01:37:55,109 --> 01:37:52,639
years before i even started looking at

2703
01:37:57,830 --> 01:37:55,119
this the editor endless who must have

2704
01:37:59,270 --> 01:37:57,840
known what went on died in 2015.

2705
01:38:00,470 --> 01:37:59,280
you know

2706
01:38:01,910 --> 01:38:00,480
these people

2707
01:38:03,510 --> 01:38:01,920
i mean i mean i was working on a

2708
01:38:05,189 --> 01:38:03,520
newspaper at the time some of the people

2709
01:38:06,950 --> 01:38:05,199
who were sort of in the senior positions

2710
01:38:09,030 --> 01:38:06,960
like that were in the 60s and 70s

2711
01:38:10,470 --> 01:38:09,040
they're not alive anymore and you know

2712
01:38:12,070 --> 01:38:10,480
there are very few people who remember

2713
01:38:13,510 --> 01:38:12,080
anything about it

2714
01:38:16,310 --> 01:38:13,520
yeah and i will say there is one guy

2715
01:38:19,270 --> 01:38:16,320
that's come forward stewart who

2716
01:38:21,189 --> 01:38:19,280
worked as a press photographer at

2717
01:38:23,109 --> 01:38:21,199
the daily record 30 odd years ago he's

2718
01:38:25,510 --> 01:38:23,119
actually going to be live tonight on

2719
01:38:27,350 --> 01:38:25,520
alien addicts youtube channel

2720
01:38:29,030 --> 01:38:27,360
in about 20 minutes in fact now he

2721
01:38:30,950 --> 01:38:29,040
claims to have seen the six images

2722
01:38:32,470 --> 01:38:30,960
whether that's negatives or not i spoke

2723
01:38:34,149 --> 01:38:32,480
to him ever so briefly and hopefully

2724
01:38:35,830 --> 01:38:34,159
i'll be speaking to him privately in the

2725
01:38:37,270 --> 01:38:35,840
week but i'm sure he's going to talk

2726
01:38:39,430 --> 01:38:37,280
about it a lot tonight over on that

2727
01:38:40,709 --> 01:38:39,440
channel so please by all means go over

2728
01:38:42,470 --> 01:38:40,719
and check that out

2729
01:38:43,910 --> 01:38:42,480
but yeah this is the thing most people

2730
01:38:45,350 --> 01:38:43,920
have died and moved on and also the

2731
01:38:47,990 --> 01:38:45,360
daily record went through a massive

2732
01:38:50,310 --> 01:38:48,000
change from their storage of old

2733
01:38:52,790 --> 01:38:50,320
photographs and negatives as well didn't

2734
01:38:55,510 --> 01:38:52,800
they yeah i mean i spoke to the current

2735
01:38:57,430 --> 01:38:55,520
chief reporter there and he he's not

2736
01:38:59,510 --> 01:38:57,440
been he wasn't there at the time but he

2737
01:39:00,870 --> 01:38:59,520
knows that um and this is the same i

2738
01:39:02,790 --> 01:39:00,880
worked at the sheffield star which was

2739
01:39:05,030 --> 01:39:02,800
part of the same group at the time and i

2740
01:39:07,350 --> 01:39:05,040
remember going into the library on one

2741
01:39:09,350 --> 01:39:07,360
occasion and to my horror they got all

2742
01:39:10,790 --> 01:39:09,360
the boxes of old prints and all the

2743
01:39:12,709 --> 01:39:10,800
newspaper cuttings that we used to have

2744
01:39:15,109 --> 01:39:12,719
carefully filed all stacked up to go in

2745
01:39:17,669 --> 01:39:15,119
an incinerator and i had to so i just

2746
01:39:19,189 --> 01:39:17,679
rescued stuff what i could but the same

2747
01:39:21,510 --> 01:39:19,199
thing happened at the daily record so if

2748
01:39:23,270 --> 01:39:21,520
it is true as the mod say that the

2749
01:39:25,350 --> 01:39:23,280
negatives were sent back to the daily

2750
01:39:27,590 --> 01:39:25,360
record and for some bizarre reason they

2751
01:39:29,350 --> 01:39:27,600
decided not to run the story and i still

2752
01:39:30,950 --> 01:39:29,360
kind of got my head around why a

2753
01:39:32,870 --> 01:39:30,960
newspaper would not run a story like

2754
01:39:34,790 --> 01:39:32,880
that it could have it could have been

2755
01:39:36,870 --> 01:39:34,800
that they just got put in the in the

2756
01:39:37,910 --> 01:39:36,880
negative file or something and then

2757
01:39:40,470 --> 01:39:37,920
circa

2758
01:39:42,310 --> 01:39:40,480
2001 when everything was digitized they

2759
01:39:44,070 --> 01:39:42,320
just chucked the lot and burnt it you

2760
01:39:45,430 --> 01:39:44,080
know and so the best photo the best

2761
01:39:48,070 --> 01:39:45,440
negatives that could have told us

2762
01:39:49,750 --> 01:39:48,080
something ended up on an incinerator

2763
01:39:51,750 --> 01:39:49,760
somewhere you might think that is just

2764
01:39:54,310 --> 01:39:51,760
not possible but knowing what i know i

2765
01:39:56,070 --> 01:39:54,320
think it's very likely to have happened

2766
01:39:58,390 --> 01:39:56,080
yeah if they were told the same story

2767
01:40:00,550 --> 01:39:58,400
that the people in the 1992

2768
01:40:01,910 --> 01:40:00,560
investigation were told you know that

2769
01:40:03,510 --> 01:40:01,920
there's nothing to this it's an area

2770
01:40:04,790 --> 01:40:03,520
like this monster why would you bother

2771
01:40:06,310 --> 01:40:04,800
keeping it you're not going to the

2772
01:40:09,030 --> 01:40:06,320
newspaper is not going to print some

2773
01:40:10,310 --> 01:40:09,040
photos that is as good as they look you

2774
01:40:11,430 --> 01:40:10,320
know they've been told are a hoax

2775
01:40:12,870 --> 01:40:11,440
representative

2776
01:40:14,229 --> 01:40:12,880
but there is the information you

2777
01:40:16,229 --> 01:40:14,239
discovered matthew as well about the

2778
01:40:17,270 --> 01:40:16,239
editor as well do you want to

2779
01:40:20,149 --> 01:40:17,280
oh

2780
01:40:21,750 --> 01:40:20,159
yeah yes um again we just we knew his

2781
01:40:23,189 --> 01:40:21,760
name for a while and i've tried to

2782
01:40:25,910 --> 01:40:23,199
obviously when he was deceased and tried

2783
01:40:28,629 --> 01:40:25,920
to find him um and then by sheer chance

2784
01:40:29,990 --> 01:40:28,639
we've got this memo um that you got

2785
01:40:32,709 --> 01:40:30,000
david um

2786
01:40:34,629 --> 01:40:32,719
which mentioned about the report

2787
01:40:36,870 --> 01:40:34,639
um another

2788
01:40:39,350 --> 01:40:36,880
convenient uh drop out of information

2789
01:40:42,149 --> 01:40:39,360
which the mod uh claims to have lost

2790
01:40:46,149 --> 01:40:42,159
every single original unredacted copy of

2791
01:40:48,149 --> 01:40:46,159
um and uh this this memo talks about a

2792
01:40:51,030 --> 01:40:48,159
sighting potentially um in which a d

2793
01:40:52,870 --> 01:40:51,040
notice was issued so the d notice

2794
01:40:56,709 --> 01:40:52,880
notices were issued by a particular

2795
01:41:00,390 --> 01:40:56,719
committee and i emailed them and said um

2796
01:41:03,189 --> 01:41:00,400
any no issues um of d notices in 1990 in

2797
01:41:04,790 --> 01:41:03,199
reference to scotland no there's nothing

2798
01:41:06,550 --> 01:41:04,800
like that or that we've got no records

2799
01:41:08,950 --> 01:41:06,560
of anything being issued in that today

2800
01:41:09,990 --> 01:41:08,960
which is more accurate uh and then um i

2801
01:41:11,189 --> 01:41:10,000
just sort of sat there and think i

2802
01:41:12,390 --> 01:41:11,199
thought about it for a while and i

2803
01:41:14,790 --> 01:41:12,400
thought oh i wonder who was on the

2804
01:41:16,470 --> 01:41:14,800
committee um sent them an email and they

2805
01:41:18,629 --> 01:41:16,480
sent me a list back and i was surprised

2806
01:41:20,629 --> 01:41:18,639
to get a list um but i was just scanning

2807
01:41:23,590 --> 01:41:20,639
down it and they're halfway down is the

2808
01:41:25,430 --> 01:41:23,600
name mendel led and so of the daily

2809
01:41:26,470 --> 01:41:25,440
record so

2810
01:41:28,470 --> 01:41:26,480
you know you

2811
01:41:29,910 --> 01:41:28,480
you're if you were if you were poaching

2812
01:41:32,629 --> 01:41:29,920
you basically sent the photographs to

2813
01:41:34,709 --> 01:41:32,639
the gamekeeper um i should explain the

2814
01:41:36,950 --> 01:41:34,719
nurses committee was made up of i think

2815
01:41:38,629 --> 01:41:36,960
he's about 12 members and six of them

2816
01:41:40,390 --> 01:41:38,639
are press representatives because the d

2817
01:41:42,229 --> 01:41:40,400
notices are all about the relationship

2818
01:41:44,070 --> 01:41:42,239
between the minister of defense and the

2819
01:41:46,229 --> 01:41:44,080
pr and the press so it's like a

2820
01:41:48,310 --> 01:41:46,239
revolving door in that so that each of

2821
01:41:50,070 --> 01:41:48,320
the news organizations will volunteer

2822
01:41:52,229 --> 01:41:50,080
someone to go and

2823
01:41:54,470 --> 01:41:52,239
join the committee for x x number of

2824
01:41:55,830 --> 01:41:54,480
months and so anything that that comes

2825
01:41:58,070 --> 01:41:55,840
to the attention of the committee that's

2826
01:41:59,669 --> 01:41:58,080
potentially affects national security

2827
01:42:01,990 --> 01:41:59,679
they can talk to

2828
01:42:04,550 --> 01:42:02,000
press representatives directly so they

2829
01:42:06,790 --> 01:42:04,560
wouldn't need to issue a d notice on

2830
01:42:08,310 --> 01:42:06,800
this they just simply just waited for

2831
01:42:10,310 --> 01:42:08,320
the next meeting and then dollars come

2832
01:42:11,510 --> 01:42:10,320
down on the train from glasgow and they

2833
01:42:13,350 --> 01:42:11,520
just said well we've sent you those

2834
01:42:15,430 --> 01:42:13,360
negatives back but you know there's a

2835
01:42:18,229 --> 01:42:15,440
war going on this is a secret military

2836
01:42:19,910 --> 01:42:18,239
exercise please don't use the story and

2837
01:42:21,590 --> 01:42:19,920
endle could have turned around and said

2838
01:42:22,950 --> 01:42:21,600
well i don't care what you say i'm going

2839
01:42:25,109 --> 01:42:22,960
to use it anyway and there's nothing the

2840
01:42:27,510 --> 01:42:25,119
committee could have done to stop that

2841
01:42:29,669 --> 01:42:27,520
it's not law you know that you can just

2842
01:42:31,510 --> 01:42:29,679
ignore what they tell you but again it's

2843
01:42:33,189 --> 01:42:31,520
a strange coincidence i think yeah

2844
01:42:35,109 --> 01:42:33,199
people think d notes are some kind of

2845
01:42:37,270 --> 01:42:35,119
like uh government heavy-handed tactics

2846
01:42:38,629 --> 01:42:37,280
where you will not print anything it's

2847
01:42:40,790 --> 01:42:38,639
not like that it's a david it's actually

2848
01:42:42,149 --> 01:42:40,800
a voluntary arrangement in fact most

2849
01:42:44,550 --> 01:42:42,159
journalists if they've got any if they

2850
01:42:46,709 --> 01:42:44,560
really are journalists would just

2851
01:42:49,189 --> 01:42:46,719
being told oh this is covered by a d

2852
01:42:51,830 --> 01:42:49,199
notice would be to me as a journalist a

2853
01:42:53,430 --> 01:42:51,840
red rag to print it you know i would you

2854
01:42:54,870 --> 01:42:53,440
know i would i would think right that

2855
01:42:56,550 --> 01:42:54,880
shows it's a good story then i'll print

2856
01:42:58,709 --> 01:42:56,560
it so as long as i'm not going to reveal

2857
01:43:01,109 --> 01:42:58,719
the name of a british agent in russia

2858
01:43:02,390 --> 01:43:01,119
who's going to get killed you know you

2859
01:43:03,910 --> 01:43:02,400
have to use your judgment as a

2860
01:43:06,070 --> 01:43:03,920
journalist as to what as to how

2861
01:43:07,910 --> 01:43:06,080
important is a new story

2862
01:43:16,790 --> 01:43:07,920
this is why you were never on the notice

2863
01:43:20,709 --> 01:43:19,189
um about um

2864
01:43:22,149 --> 01:43:20,719
what he mentioned about uh seeing

2865
01:43:24,709 --> 01:43:22,159
low-flying aircraft and all the rest of

2866
01:43:27,990 --> 01:43:24,719
it now he mentioned on the replies on

2867
01:43:29,350 --> 01:43:28,000
the dude on um andy mcgrillen's youtube

2868
01:43:32,070 --> 01:43:29,360
uh channel the other day about the

2869
01:43:35,189 --> 01:43:32,080
calvin update i was on and he reckons

2870
01:43:37,189 --> 01:43:35,199
that this uh object at calvin was the

2871
01:43:39,350 --> 01:43:37,199
same as the one that crow that had an

2872
01:43:42,470 --> 01:43:39,360
accident at boston down in that in

2873
01:43:43,109 --> 01:43:42,480
september 1994 now that

2874
01:43:46,070 --> 01:43:43,119
the

2875
01:43:48,470 --> 01:43:46,080
ad notice was actually sinful if any of

2876
01:43:50,950 --> 01:43:48,480
them were because that was something

2877
01:43:53,669 --> 01:43:50,960
that um actually had a an accident on

2878
01:43:55,189 --> 01:43:53,679
takeoff and the nose wheel buckled now

2879
01:43:56,870 --> 01:43:55,199
the thing about that is

2880
01:43:59,030 --> 01:43:56,880
gordon reckons that that is the same

2881
01:44:01,109 --> 01:43:59,040
aircraft or the same craft as the calvin

2882
01:44:03,510 --> 01:44:01,119
well it's not because in terms of what

2883
01:44:05,109 --> 01:44:03,520
the calvin looks as a diamond whereas

2884
01:44:08,629 --> 01:44:05,119
the description of the thing that was a

2885
01:44:11,750 --> 01:44:08,639
boss come down had a cockpit which

2886
01:44:13,830 --> 01:44:11,760
hinged forward it also had two tail fins

2887
01:44:16,070 --> 01:44:13,840
that were candid inwards such as the uh

2888
01:44:18,070 --> 01:44:16,080
the prototype of the um the hopeless

2889
01:44:20,149 --> 01:44:18,080
diamond as its nickname the half blue

2890
01:44:22,790 --> 01:44:20,159
prototype which was the the predecessor

2891
01:44:24,709 --> 01:44:22,800
of the form and seven stealth fighter um

2892
01:44:26,950 --> 01:44:24,719
and of course it was spirited away to

2893
01:44:30,709 --> 01:44:26,960
palmdale in lock uh lockheed's test

2894
01:44:32,790 --> 01:44:30,719
plant the next day uh in a c5 galaxy

2895
01:44:35,030 --> 01:44:32,800
that's some kind of proper aircraft and

2896
01:44:38,310 --> 01:44:35,040
i don't think the two things are are

2897
01:44:42,229 --> 01:44:40,229
the uh the united committee said they've

2898
01:44:44,870 --> 01:44:42,239
got no record of a denote is being

2899
01:44:53,990 --> 01:44:44,880
issued for boston down either yeah yeah

2900
01:44:58,550 --> 01:44:55,669
there is a section on black project

2901
01:45:01,189 --> 01:44:58,560
aircraft that um has a picture of the um

2902
01:45:03,109 --> 01:45:01,199
the blackbird don't you the sr-71 and it

2903
01:45:06,149 --> 01:45:03,119
says very specifically there are two

2904
01:45:08,149 --> 01:45:06,159
other um experimental us

2905
01:45:10,070 --> 01:45:08,159
black project programs which may have

2906
01:45:11,590 --> 01:45:10,080
visited the uk and if people had seen

2907
01:45:13,430 --> 01:45:11,600
them because they're so unfamiliar in

2908
01:45:15,750 --> 01:45:13,440
shape they would have reported them as a

2909
01:45:18,149 --> 01:45:15,760
ufo and there's two images that have

2910
01:45:21,030 --> 01:45:18,159
been removed from the condyle report

2911
01:45:22,870 --> 01:45:21,040
that show what these two um top secret

2912
01:45:24,229 --> 01:45:22,880
projects so anyone that say oh no no

2913
01:45:25,830 --> 01:45:24,239
there wasn't anything we all we know

2914
01:45:28,470 --> 01:45:25,840
what they look like those have been

2915
01:45:30,149 --> 01:45:28,480
removed on section 27 of the um

2916
01:45:31,430 --> 01:45:30,159
freedom of information act which covers

2917
01:45:33,590 --> 01:45:31,440
international relations they are

2918
01:45:35,990 --> 01:45:33,600
american secret projects that we are not

2919
01:45:38,870 --> 01:45:36,000
allowed to see what they look like

2920
01:45:40,709 --> 01:45:38,880
32 years later we're still not yeah any

2921
01:45:42,390 --> 01:45:40,719
of the wiser what these things are your

2922
01:45:43,750 --> 01:45:42,400
lead time for as i keep saying your lead

2923
01:45:45,270 --> 01:45:43,760
time for these kind of things is usually

2924
01:45:48,310 --> 01:45:45,280
12 and 15 years

2925
01:45:50,790 --> 01:45:48,320
in terms of the the b2 or the f117 and

2926
01:45:52,950 --> 01:45:50,800
yet these have never been put in the

2927
01:45:54,550 --> 01:45:52,960
public eye even if they don't work

2928
01:45:56,229 --> 01:45:54,560
they've never been released

2929
01:45:57,590 --> 01:45:56,239
exactly yeah but that kind of speaking

2930
01:45:59,109 --> 01:45:57,600
of the condy and i think david i think

2931
01:46:00,629 --> 01:45:59,119
it's about time we did a deep dive on

2932
01:46:01,990 --> 01:46:00,639
that so maybe in a few weeks time you

2933
01:46:04,550 --> 01:46:02,000
can come back on and we'll really dig

2934
01:46:06,310 --> 01:46:04,560
into that seeing as you're the one that

2935
01:46:07,830 --> 01:46:06,320
got that document out into the world you

2936
01:46:10,149 --> 01:46:07,840
know if anybody knows that you do in

2937
01:46:12,229 --> 01:46:10,159
fact you've got what one of four

2938
01:46:14,629 --> 01:46:12,239
the only fourth is two physical copies

2939
01:46:17,109 --> 01:46:14,639
in the world direct from the mod and

2940
01:46:18,950 --> 01:46:17,119
fantastic so um so yeah listen we're

2941
01:46:20,229 --> 01:46:18,960
about an hour and three quarters in now

2942
01:46:23,189 --> 01:46:20,239
and we just want to finish up on a

2943
01:46:24,310 --> 01:46:23,199
couple of points uh if that's okay

2944
01:46:25,510 --> 01:46:24,320
um

2945
01:46:31,510 --> 01:46:25,520
one

2946
01:46:34,390 --> 01:46:31,520
i mean i spoke to craig david you speak

2947
01:46:36,070 --> 01:46:34,400
to craig matthew giles

2948
01:46:37,430 --> 01:46:36,080
do we know i mean we know we had a lot

2949
01:46:39,350 --> 01:46:37,440
of fun with the photograph over the

2950
01:46:40,870 --> 01:46:39,360
years

2951
01:46:45,590 --> 01:46:40,880
um

2952
01:46:47,830 --> 01:46:45,600
would have gotten into trouble with the

2953
01:46:50,149 --> 01:46:47,840
official secrets act um

2954
01:46:52,390 --> 01:46:50,159
that is the the thing that um

2955
01:46:54,149 --> 01:46:52,400
that many many people

2956
01:46:55,350 --> 01:46:54,159
former military retired military people

2957
01:46:57,350 --> 01:46:55,360
it bothers them

2958
01:46:58,629 --> 01:46:57,360
you know and that they

2959
01:47:00,070 --> 01:46:58,639
they're worried about the pensions

2960
01:47:02,709 --> 01:47:00,080
they're worried about

2961
01:47:04,709 --> 01:47:02,719
i mean the thing is with craig

2962
01:47:06,070 --> 01:47:04,719
he was saying i don't want to talk about

2963
01:47:08,149 --> 01:47:06,080
i don't want to talk about this because

2964
01:47:10,470 --> 01:47:08,159
i don't want coach loads of ufo people

2965
01:47:13,030 --> 01:47:10,480
turning up on my doorstep and the last

2966
01:47:14,790 --> 01:47:13,040
conversation i had with him um after the

2967
01:47:16,950 --> 01:47:14,800
thing appeared in the daily mail was

2968
01:47:19,350 --> 01:47:16,960
craig have you had coach loads of ufo

2969
01:47:22,070 --> 01:47:19,360
people turning up on your doorstep no so

2970
01:47:24,310 --> 01:47:22,080
you know those fears were not rational

2971
01:47:25,590 --> 01:47:24,320
ones but i can understand why i mean

2972
01:47:27,910 --> 01:47:25,600
just look at the truth just look at the

2973
01:47:29,669 --> 01:47:27,920
reaction on twitter you know the people

2974
01:47:31,430 --> 01:47:29,679
who are with some who

2975
01:47:33,750 --> 01:47:31,440
god knows what motivates them and i

2976
01:47:35,750 --> 01:47:33,760
actually find the reaction of people on

2977
01:47:37,669 --> 01:47:35,760
social media actually more interesting

2978
01:47:40,310 --> 01:47:37,679
than the photographs themselves

2979
01:47:42,790 --> 01:47:40,320
i really do i mean the vehemence that

2980
01:47:45,510 --> 01:47:42,800
some of the people attack people over

2981
01:47:47,109 --> 01:47:45,520
over this photograph it's almost like

2982
01:47:48,790 --> 01:47:47,119
it's been found and it's been put out

2983
01:47:50,310 --> 01:47:48,800
there and they're all suddenly happy for

2984
01:47:51,990 --> 01:47:50,320
a minute and then they're all turned

2985
01:47:53,270 --> 01:47:52,000
then it's all nastiness and throwing

2986
01:47:54,470 --> 01:47:53,280
things at each other and what have you

2987
01:47:56,550 --> 01:47:54,480
and

2988
01:47:58,790 --> 01:47:56,560
so the question why did he not come

2989
01:48:00,470 --> 01:47:58,800
forward sooner i mean it's amazing he's

2990
01:48:01,990 --> 01:48:00,480
come forward at all to be honest because

2991
01:48:04,629 --> 01:48:02,000
i spoke to him about this and this is

2992
01:48:05,910 --> 01:48:04,639
what he was afraid of you know he that's

2993
01:48:08,149 --> 01:48:05,920
the last thing these people want is to

2994
01:48:09,430 --> 01:48:08,159
be bombarded with people's theories and

2995
01:48:11,350 --> 01:48:09,440
why have you done this and why have you

2996
01:48:13,030 --> 01:48:11,360
done that yeah you know just be grateful

2997
01:48:15,430 --> 01:48:13,040
that we've got the bloody thing out

2998
01:48:17,270 --> 01:48:15,440
there you know whatever it is

2999
01:48:19,109 --> 01:48:17,280
we can debate till the cows come home

3000
01:48:20,629 --> 01:48:19,119
but you know these

3001
01:48:22,390 --> 01:48:20,639
the thing i come across when i'm trying

3002
01:48:25,189 --> 01:48:22,400
to persuade some of these ex military

3003
01:48:27,109 --> 01:48:25,199
people to talk is this reaction

3004
01:48:29,350 --> 01:48:27,119
they say oh my god you know we've seen

3005
01:48:31,669 --> 01:48:29,360
what goes on on social media why would

3006
01:48:33,189 --> 01:48:31,679
anyone want to come out and say anything

3007
01:48:34,149 --> 01:48:33,199
about what they know about this subject

3008
01:48:36,310 --> 01:48:34,159
because they're just going to be the

3009
01:48:38,790 --> 01:48:36,320
target for all these people with these

3010
01:48:40,950 --> 01:48:38,800
hidden agendas and them and not just not

3011
01:48:42,790 --> 01:48:40,960
just social media to be fair mainstream

3012
01:48:45,189 --> 01:48:42,800
media as well you know they don't want

3013
01:48:46,870 --> 01:48:45,199
tv crews they don't you know these

3014
01:48:49,350 --> 01:48:46,880
people just want to keep the head down

3015
01:48:50,870 --> 01:48:49,360
and i think with craig it's followed him

3016
01:48:52,629 --> 01:48:50,880
all these years

3017
01:48:55,030 --> 01:48:52,639
he said that like every time he drove up

3018
01:48:56,629 --> 01:48:55,040
the a9 and he passed calvin he was like

3019
01:48:59,910 --> 01:48:56,639
looking up in the sky and thinking oh is

3020
01:49:01,510 --> 01:48:59,920
that thing coming back you know and and

3021
01:49:02,790 --> 01:49:01,520
and you know matthew don't you because

3022
01:49:03,590 --> 01:49:02,800
you you've done a bit of research on

3023
01:49:05,590 --> 01:49:03,600
this

3024
01:49:07,350 --> 01:49:05,600
he he carried the photograph around with

3025
01:49:09,350 --> 01:49:07,360
him for years and he kept pulling it out

3026
01:49:10,310 --> 01:49:09,360
of his briefcase almost like as a party

3027
01:49:12,550 --> 01:49:10,320
yacht

3028
01:49:14,470 --> 01:49:12,560
yeah we've got at least three separate

3029
01:49:16,950 --> 01:49:14,480
well you know people who've messaged us

3030
01:49:18,709 --> 01:49:16,960
separately uh all of whom have recounted

3031
01:49:21,189 --> 01:49:18,719
uh

3032
01:49:23,430 --> 01:49:21,199
similar incidents where craig almost as

3033
01:49:26,070 --> 01:49:23,440
a party piece was on an official visit

3034
01:49:28,149 --> 01:49:26,080
somewhere was having lunch or dinner and

3035
01:49:29,910 --> 01:49:28,159
uh when conversation was at the lull he

3036
01:49:31,350 --> 01:49:29,920
just opened his briefcase and whipped

3037
01:49:33,109 --> 01:49:31,360
the carving photo out and said what's

3038
01:49:35,430 --> 01:49:33,119
your record to this yeah

3039
01:49:36,709 --> 01:49:35,440
and yeah we had three separate people uh

3040
01:49:39,270 --> 01:49:36,719
tell us that this was happening

3041
01:49:41,430 --> 01:49:39,280
throughout the 1990s so it does seem

3042
01:49:42,390 --> 01:49:41,440
that he was he was keeping it close to

3043
01:49:44,950 --> 01:49:42,400
his chest

3044
01:49:46,550 --> 01:49:44,960
and also um you know

3045
01:49:48,149 --> 01:49:46,560
there's a number of other reasons why he

3046
01:49:49,589 --> 01:49:48,159
was he was a bit reluctant to part with

3047
01:49:51,510 --> 01:49:49,599
it as well but he was quite annoyed by

3048
01:49:52,709 --> 01:49:51,520
some of what he described as you know

3049
01:49:54,550 --> 01:49:52,719
the stories that have been in the

3050
01:49:56,470 --> 01:49:54,560
tabloids and some of the stuff that nick

3051
01:49:57,990 --> 01:49:56,480
pope had written about it that he

3052
01:50:00,709 --> 01:49:58,000
thought well that's not what i

3053
01:50:02,390 --> 01:50:00,719
remembered these i mean one specific

3054
01:50:03,910 --> 01:50:02,400
point was i think in nick pope's account

3055
01:50:05,350 --> 01:50:03,920
he talks about the guys hearing a

3056
01:50:07,350 --> 01:50:05,360
humming noise

3057
01:50:09,189 --> 01:50:07,360
and he said he remembered reading nick

3058
01:50:10,709 --> 01:50:09,199
pope's book in waterstones and he read

3059
01:50:12,790 --> 01:50:10,719
that and he thought that's not what he

3060
01:50:14,790 --> 01:50:12,800
said to me the the key thing that stuck

3061
01:50:17,030 --> 01:50:14,800
in his mind is that it was utterly

3062
01:50:19,109 --> 01:50:17,040
silent you know it didn't make any noise

3063
01:50:20,310 --> 01:50:19,119
at all so he wanted to correct

3064
01:50:22,390 --> 01:50:20,320
some of the um some of the

3065
01:50:24,390 --> 01:50:22,400
misconceptions about it which i mean the

3066
01:50:26,390 --> 01:50:24,400
thing is i mean nick was probably

3067
01:50:27,430 --> 01:50:26,400
remembering something or mixing it up

3068
01:50:29,830 --> 01:50:27,440
with something else it might be a

3069
01:50:31,669 --> 01:50:29,840
perfectly logical reason for that but

3070
01:50:33,669 --> 01:50:31,679
then when we get into the stage where

3071
01:50:34,709 --> 01:50:33,679
the the sun are doing all these sort of

3072
01:50:36,629 --> 01:50:34,719
um

3073
01:50:38,550 --> 01:50:36,639
stories about it and there's this

3074
01:50:39,990 --> 01:50:38,560
artist's impression that appears it it's

3075
01:50:42,310 --> 01:50:40,000
almost it's like the rendlesham thing

3076
01:50:44,470 --> 01:50:42,320
it's like a snowball that just rolls

3077
01:50:46,709 --> 01:50:44,480
down the hillside collecting ever more

3078
01:50:48,550 --> 01:50:46,719
um extraneous stories and then then you

3079
01:50:50,149 --> 01:50:48,560
get all this fantasists coming forward

3080
01:50:51,830 --> 01:50:50,159
wanting to write themselves into it and

3081
01:50:52,950 --> 01:50:51,840
claim that they knew something about it

3082
01:50:55,109 --> 01:50:52,960
you know so

3083
01:50:57,030 --> 01:50:55,119
i think he just wanted

3084
01:50:59,270 --> 01:50:57,040
probably after 32 years this is probably

3085
01:51:00,629 --> 01:50:59,280
the last chance to get to the truth and

3086
01:51:02,550 --> 01:51:00,639
like vinnie's always saying this is an

3087
01:51:04,310 --> 01:51:02,560
ongoing investigation and you know we're

3088
01:51:06,149 --> 01:51:04,320
still on the trail

3089
01:51:08,470 --> 01:51:06,159
of some of the answers to these things

3090
01:51:10,870 --> 01:51:08,480
you know yeah

3091
01:51:13,430 --> 01:51:10,880
can i come in just briefly

3092
01:51:16,550 --> 01:51:13,440
because um obviously we met um craig

3093
01:51:19,830 --> 01:51:16,560
here uh in in calvin and uh

3094
01:51:21,990 --> 01:51:19,840
he's clearly a man of uh integrity he's

3095
01:51:24,070 --> 01:51:22,000
in his 80s he's got very little to to

3096
01:51:25,910 --> 01:51:24,080
gain from this i just i just felt that

3097
01:51:27,430 --> 01:51:25,920
he wanted some answers

3098
01:51:29,270 --> 01:51:27,440
you know it was said it was something

3099
01:51:31,830 --> 01:51:29,280
that was sort of carrying

3100
01:51:33,350 --> 01:51:31,840
behind him for a long part of his life

3101
01:51:35,750 --> 01:51:33,360
and he just he's you know there's

3102
01:51:37,750 --> 01:51:35,760
there's no financial gain for him he he

3103
01:51:39,430 --> 01:51:37,760
was very reluctant all the way along the

3104
01:51:40,709 --> 01:51:39,440
line you know he could have

3105
01:51:41,910 --> 01:51:40,719
he could have released it held a lot

3106
01:51:43,750 --> 01:51:41,920
earlier than he did but he didn't want

3107
01:51:46,310 --> 01:51:43,760
to he was he was he only did when he was

3108
01:51:48,149 --> 01:51:46,320
ready yep um you know he there was

3109
01:51:50,229 --> 01:51:48,159
nothing there's nothing really for him

3110
01:51:51,750 --> 01:51:50,239
to gain from this you know

3111
01:51:54,550 --> 01:51:51,760
that's something that's important to say

3112
01:51:55,830 --> 01:51:54,560
he's said he's i think he's 83. he just

3113
01:51:57,589 --> 01:51:55,840
he just wanted

3114
01:51:59,750 --> 01:51:57,599
an answer which we all do at the end of

3115
01:52:02,070 --> 01:51:59,760
the day it's it's been out there and as

3116
01:52:04,790 --> 01:52:02,080
i said he's probably like david said

3117
01:52:06,790 --> 01:52:04,800
he's he's had these little bits of

3118
01:52:08,950 --> 01:52:06,800
uh information that

3119
01:52:10,870 --> 01:52:08,960
isn't correct he didn't as he remembered

3120
01:52:12,790 --> 01:52:10,880
it and that's what

3121
01:52:14,310 --> 01:52:12,800
sort of get away at him to the point

3122
01:52:15,270 --> 01:52:14,320
where he thought hold on a minute i want

3123
01:52:18,390 --> 01:52:15,280
to

3124
01:52:22,149 --> 01:52:18,400
speak about this now and i think that's

3125
01:52:24,149 --> 01:52:22,159
that's where he he finally um produced

3126
01:52:25,589 --> 01:52:24,159
the image yeah and he was very generous

3127
01:52:27,109 --> 01:52:25,599
with the you know recalling the

3128
01:52:28,870 --> 01:52:27,119
information that he knew from the time

3129
01:52:30,709 --> 01:52:28,880
about where he heard that they worked

3130
01:52:32,550 --> 01:52:30,719
and things like that that has given us

3131
01:52:35,030 --> 01:52:32,560
something to work with in this ongoing

3132
01:52:37,350 --> 01:52:35,040
investigation so at this point that is

3133
01:52:38,229 --> 01:52:37,360
ongoing that's why we aren't at a point

3134
01:52:41,189 --> 01:52:38,239
where

3135
01:52:42,470 --> 01:52:41,199
we can just spew everything out

3136
01:52:44,390 --> 01:52:42,480
we've given nearly two hours of

3137
01:52:45,750 --> 01:52:44,400
information tonight maybe we'll

3138
01:52:47,189 --> 01:52:45,760
hopefully we'll get more information

3139
01:52:48,709 --> 01:52:47,199
further down the line and we can do this

3140
01:52:51,350 --> 01:52:48,719
again obviously sooner the better

3141
01:52:53,430 --> 01:52:51,360
because we want that information but

3142
01:52:55,910 --> 01:52:53,440
you know it is ongoing

3143
01:52:58,149 --> 01:52:55,920
it's confusing it's hard to track people

3144
01:53:00,470 --> 01:52:58,159
down matthew is phenomenal at doing that

3145
01:53:03,030 --> 01:53:00,480
but we've struggled but we're still

3146
01:53:05,910 --> 01:53:03,040
going little points crop up and then we

3147
01:53:07,350 --> 01:53:05,920
go down that lead so we've got a hydra

3148
01:53:09,510 --> 01:53:07,360
of

3149
01:53:10,870 --> 01:53:09,520
things going on i've got to say i think

3150
01:53:12,390 --> 01:53:10,880
matthew should get the award for

3151
01:53:13,669 --> 01:53:12,400
investigative journalist of the year

3152
01:53:16,629 --> 01:53:13,679
because he's really

3153
01:53:18,149 --> 01:53:16,639
outstanding uh okay i vote that yep

3154
01:53:19,669 --> 01:53:18,159
definitely

3155
01:53:21,589 --> 01:53:19,679
so listen we've got about five minutes

3156
01:53:23,990 --> 01:53:21,599
before we hit the two hour mark um i

3157
01:53:25,430 --> 01:53:24,000
think um we have to address this this

3158
01:53:26,550 --> 01:53:25,440
has been the elephant in the room all

3159
01:53:30,709 --> 01:53:26,560
along

3160
01:53:35,030 --> 01:53:33,109
the writing on the back

3161
01:53:37,750 --> 01:53:35,040
of the photograph what can we say about

3162
01:53:39,750 --> 01:53:37,760
it what can't you say about it

3163
01:53:41,750 --> 01:53:39,760
okay big revelation of the night folks

3164
01:53:43,270 --> 01:53:41,760
the name of the photographer or who is

3165
01:53:45,990 --> 01:53:43,280
alleged to be the photographer is

3166
01:53:47,750 --> 01:53:46,000
written in red ink on the back of the

3167
01:53:51,510 --> 01:53:47,760
print okay

3168
01:53:53,510 --> 01:53:51,520
and we have talked about this we've

3169
01:53:56,550 --> 01:53:53,520
commutated about what shall we do with

3170
01:53:58,629 --> 01:53:56,560
that we've done a lot of really in-depth

3171
01:53:59,990 --> 01:53:58,639
investigations behind the scenes to find

3172
01:54:03,350 --> 01:54:00,000
this person

3173
01:54:06,070 --> 01:54:03,360
um and we took a um

3174
01:54:07,830 --> 01:54:06,080
a decision not to release the name

3175
01:54:09,669 --> 01:54:07,840
for the time being because if you think

3176
01:54:11,830 --> 01:54:09,679
about it that's quite a legitimate

3177
01:54:13,510 --> 01:54:11,840
investigative technique because we're

3178
01:54:14,790 --> 01:54:13,520
hoping that this person is going to come

3179
01:54:17,510 --> 01:54:14,800
out of the woodwork or that we're going

3180
01:54:19,669 --> 01:54:17,520
to find him through our investigations

3181
01:54:21,270 --> 01:54:19,679
um if this if people come out of the

3182
01:54:23,030 --> 01:54:21,280
woodwork and say i'm the photographer

3183
01:54:24,709 --> 01:54:23,040
this is my print

3184
01:54:26,229 --> 01:54:24,719
then we can say right

3185
01:54:27,669 --> 01:54:26,239
what's your name

3186
01:54:30,229 --> 01:54:27,679
and if it's not the name that's written

3187
01:54:32,790 --> 01:54:30,239
on the back of the photograph then it

3188
01:54:35,189 --> 01:54:32,800
provides a bit of an authentication

3189
01:54:37,030 --> 01:54:35,199
um technique doesn't it so i'm not

3190
01:54:38,629 --> 01:54:37,040
saying that we aren't going to reveal

3191
01:54:40,550 --> 01:54:38,639
what that name is but

3192
01:54:42,310 --> 01:54:40,560
it's been literally one week or is it

3193
01:54:44,790 --> 01:54:42,320
one week or two one and a half almost

3194
01:54:46,790 --> 01:54:44,800
yeah yeah it's too soon you know so

3195
01:54:48,390 --> 01:54:46,800
we're hoping that um somebody's going to

3196
01:54:50,629 --> 01:54:48,400
come forward or that we're going to find

3197
01:54:52,709 --> 01:54:50,639
them and i think we again over to you

3198
01:54:54,709 --> 01:54:52,719
matthew just give some idea of the

3199
01:54:56,709 --> 01:54:54,719
amount of investigative work we've put

3200
01:54:59,109 --> 01:54:56,719
into finding this person

3201
01:55:01,189 --> 01:54:59,119
we've we've contacted over

3202
01:55:02,229 --> 01:55:01,199
200 people

3203
01:55:03,510 --> 01:55:02,239
and

3204
01:55:06,310 --> 01:55:03,520
with

3205
01:55:07,510 --> 01:55:06,320
you know who of this person's

3206
01:55:10,550 --> 01:55:07,520
name and

3207
01:55:12,390 --> 01:55:10,560
uh potential relations and uh

3208
01:55:14,790 --> 01:55:12,400
potential colleagues and stuff like that

3209
01:55:18,390 --> 01:55:14,800
and by contact i don't just mean you

3210
01:55:20,709 --> 01:55:18,400
know found a name online we have haunted

3211
01:55:23,189 --> 01:55:20,719
relentlessly through through databases

3212
01:55:23,830 --> 01:55:23,199
and phone books and facebook and twitter

3213
01:55:26,390 --> 01:55:23,840
and

3214
01:55:28,629 --> 01:55:26,400
uh every search engine we could we could

3215
01:55:31,109 --> 01:55:28,639
find and uh

3216
01:55:33,109 --> 01:55:31,119
we we have found

3217
01:55:35,270 --> 01:55:33,119
people you

3218
01:55:36,790 --> 01:55:35,280
believed were absolutely nailed on it

3219
01:55:38,310 --> 01:55:36,800
had to be x

3220
01:55:40,149 --> 01:55:38,320
vinny knows exactly what i'm talking

3221
01:55:43,830 --> 01:55:40,159
about well i think we can say that one

3222
01:55:47,669 --> 01:55:46,550
yeah well it's current mode

3223
01:55:50,550 --> 01:55:47,679
yeah

3224
01:55:52,149 --> 01:55:50,560
and

3225
01:55:53,990 --> 01:55:52,159
you know

3226
01:55:54,790 --> 01:55:54,000
we we thought

3227
01:55:56,709 --> 01:55:54,800
but

3228
01:55:59,109 --> 01:55:56,719
the gentleman says not

3229
01:56:03,189 --> 01:55:59,119
um i have no recollection of being in

3230
01:56:04,070 --> 01:56:03,199
scotland in 1990 indeed

3231
01:56:07,350 --> 01:56:04,080
that's

3232
01:56:10,149 --> 01:56:09,430
he was very polite and he replied you

3233
01:56:13,430 --> 01:56:10,159
know

3234
01:56:16,149 --> 01:56:13,440
just ignored me but yeah that's that's

3235
01:56:17,510 --> 01:56:16,159
the word for word what he said um

3236
01:56:19,750 --> 01:56:17,520
and so

3237
01:56:21,189 --> 01:56:19,760
i can't prove otherwise he's not he

3238
01:56:22,470 --> 01:56:21,199
might

3239
01:56:24,229 --> 01:56:22,480
no it's not nick

3240
01:56:26,629 --> 01:56:24,239
and it might not even be him

3241
01:56:27,510 --> 01:56:26,639
we've had when we found him we just

3242
01:56:29,990 --> 01:56:27,520
thought

3243
01:56:31,830 --> 01:56:30,000
got to be got to be yeah

3244
01:56:32,709 --> 01:56:31,840
right age right name

3245
01:56:34,550 --> 01:56:32,719
you know

3246
01:56:36,070 --> 01:56:34,560
and in fact the name when we first

3247
01:56:38,149 --> 01:56:36,080
googled it and there was like massive

3248
01:56:39,669 --> 01:56:38,159
excitement that night we found someone

3249
01:56:44,310 --> 01:56:39,679
of that name with pictures of him

3250
01:56:46,950 --> 01:56:45,830
wait a minute this this investigation's

3251
01:56:49,910 --> 01:56:46,960
been going on over a year what are the

3252
01:56:51,910 --> 01:56:49,920
chances that i found it in what an hour

3253
01:56:53,350 --> 01:56:51,920
yeah i was so my heart was racing when i

3254
01:56:55,189 --> 01:56:53,360
messaged you guys and i was like check

3255
01:56:56,950 --> 01:56:55,199
this out

3256
01:56:58,950 --> 01:56:56,960
and then it turned out he was like 18 or

3257
01:57:00,870 --> 01:56:58,960
something i think he was about 30 yeah

3258
01:57:03,669 --> 01:57:00,880
it's definitely not him

3259
01:57:05,830 --> 01:57:03,679
um but yeah we we've

3260
01:57:06,950 --> 01:57:05,840
we've found we've still got lee

3261
01:57:10,629 --> 01:57:06,960
open leads

3262
01:57:13,030 --> 01:57:10,639
and only today i i've made several

3263
01:57:13,910 --> 01:57:13,040
discoveries uh to be honest one one of

3264
01:57:16,550 --> 01:57:13,920
which

3265
01:57:18,950 --> 01:57:16,560
i convinced myself today that uh the man

3266
01:57:20,709 --> 01:57:18,960
in question was deceased and then ten

3267
01:57:23,030 --> 01:57:20,719
minutes later like my heart sank and ten

3268
01:57:26,070 --> 01:57:23,040
minutes later i discovered that uh i'd

3269
01:57:29,669 --> 01:57:26,080
made a mistake so so he's very much

3270
01:57:31,030 --> 01:57:29,679
possibly uh alive again um i've got uh

3271
01:57:34,070 --> 01:57:31,040
four addresses

3272
01:57:35,990 --> 01:57:34,080
um three telephone numbers and uh i'll

3273
01:57:37,270 --> 01:57:36,000
be bringing those numbers and then if i

3274
01:57:38,390 --> 01:57:37,280
don't get through i'll be writing to

3275
01:57:40,390 --> 01:57:38,400
them tomorrow

3276
01:57:42,629 --> 01:57:40,400
so this you know we've still got irons

3277
01:57:44,149 --> 01:57:42,639
in the fire definitely but i just want

3278
01:57:45,430 --> 01:57:44,159
to say i know it must be frustrating for

3279
01:57:47,109 --> 01:57:45,440
people out there that we're not saying

3280
01:57:48,790 --> 01:57:47,119
who this is but if you think about it

3281
01:57:50,790 --> 01:57:48,800
when the police do an investigation and

3282
01:57:52,629 --> 01:57:50,800
this is a similar sort of investigative

3283
01:57:54,310 --> 01:57:52,639
sort of route that we're following they

3284
01:57:56,709 --> 01:57:54,320
don't release all the information that

3285
01:57:59,270 --> 01:57:56,719
they have they hold stuff back because

3286
01:58:00,870 --> 01:57:59,280
it's a method of authenticating what

3287
01:58:02,709 --> 01:58:00,880
they're holding and i think what we're

3288
01:58:04,390 --> 01:58:02,719
doing is quite a legitimate sort of way

3289
01:58:06,390 --> 01:58:04,400
of investigating this we will release

3290
01:58:08,709 --> 01:58:06,400
the name at some point but

3291
01:58:11,109 --> 01:58:08,719
if we say who it is just look what's

3292
01:58:13,430 --> 01:58:11,119
been going on on um social media for

3293
01:58:14,310 --> 01:58:13,440
this last week all the nonsense all the

3294
01:58:15,910 --> 01:58:14,320
sort of

3295
01:58:17,669 --> 01:58:15,920
red herrings that have been thrown out

3296
01:58:19,350 --> 01:58:17,679
if we just cast this bloke's name out

3297
01:58:20,950 --> 01:58:19,360
there there's there is a thing called

3298
01:58:23,589 --> 01:58:20,960
the data protection act as well look

3299
01:58:26,149 --> 01:58:23,599
that up and what what you have got in

3300
01:58:27,830 --> 01:58:26,159
terms of responsibility for people um

3301
01:58:30,229 --> 01:58:27,840
releasing names without getting their

3302
01:58:31,750 --> 01:58:30,239
permission or their consent you know if

3303
01:58:33,990 --> 01:58:31,760
we just cast it out there there's gonna

3304
01:58:36,229 --> 01:58:34,000
be all these people all these sort of

3305
01:58:37,510 --> 01:58:36,239
pure poirots and whatever you're on who

3306
01:58:39,189 --> 01:58:37,520
are going to be trying to track him down

3307
01:58:41,030 --> 01:58:39,199
at the same time as those how is that

3308
01:58:42,870 --> 01:58:41,040
going to be how is that going to help

3309
01:58:44,709 --> 01:58:42,880
the investigation why not look just let

3310
01:58:46,629 --> 01:58:44,719
us get on with it exactly we can't find

3311
01:58:48,709 --> 01:58:46,639
who this person is we will we will

3312
01:58:50,950 --> 01:58:48,719
publish what what we've done up to that

3313
01:58:52,310 --> 01:58:50,960
point and people will learn about you

3314
01:58:53,910 --> 01:58:52,320
just have to have a bit of patience

3315
01:58:55,589 --> 01:58:53,920
really exactly we have to be cautious

3316
01:58:57,669 --> 01:58:55,599
because the mod feel that it's valid

3317
01:59:00,470 --> 01:58:57,679
enough to withhold the name for another

3318
01:59:03,589 --> 01:59:00,480
54 years until 2076 so we can't just be

3319
01:59:05,030 --> 01:59:03,599
spewing it out we've got a

3320
01:59:06,629 --> 01:59:05,040
we've got to do this investigation

3321
01:59:08,149 --> 01:59:06,639
properly and that's what we've been

3322
01:59:10,310 --> 01:59:08,159
doing up until now so we're not going to

3323
01:59:11,350 --> 01:59:10,320
stop certainly change the the methods

3324
01:59:15,270 --> 01:59:11,360
now

3325
01:59:16,870 --> 01:59:15,280
open-minded as well i mean people have

3326
01:59:18,870 --> 01:59:16,880
sort of had a go at me with why have i

3327
01:59:20,470 --> 01:59:18,880
flip-flopped why did i say it was a hoax

3328
01:59:21,990 --> 01:59:20,480
and why have i suddenly decided it's a

3329
01:59:23,990 --> 01:59:22,000
secret aircraft well i'm changing my

3330
01:59:25,990 --> 01:59:24,000
mind all the time i mean i may flip back

3331
01:59:27,589 --> 01:59:26,000
to hooks at some point if it turns out

3332
01:59:28,470 --> 01:59:27,599
when i find this chef

3333
01:59:30,870 --> 01:59:28,480
he

3334
01:59:32,550 --> 01:59:30,880
guides me into his scottish croft and

3335
01:59:34,870 --> 01:59:32,560
sort of says oh yes and you know these

3336
01:59:37,510 --> 01:59:34,880
are some other things i've produced that

3337
01:59:39,750 --> 01:59:37,520
that will convince me you know but this

3338
01:59:41,669 --> 01:59:39,760
there is not i don't i don't get what

3339
01:59:43,990 --> 01:59:41,679
upsets people about people changing the

3340
01:59:45,910 --> 01:59:44,000
mind you change your mind when you find

3341
01:59:47,430 --> 01:59:45,920
evidence that convinces you that you

3342
01:59:49,990 --> 01:59:47,440
know you should go in a certain

3343
01:59:51,669 --> 01:59:50,000
direction and if you set out on an

3344
01:59:53,189 --> 01:59:51,679
investigation and you've already decided

3345
01:59:55,189 --> 01:59:53,199
what you're going to find all that will

3346
01:59:56,390 --> 01:59:55,199
do you just find confirmation of it so

3347
01:59:59,589 --> 01:59:56,400
if you think that there are no such

3348
02:00:01,589 --> 01:59:59,599
things as ufos that it's not possible

3349
02:00:03,510 --> 02:00:01,599
for anyone to ever photograph one then

3350
02:00:05,270 --> 02:00:03,520
you get you you will validate your own

3351
02:00:06,950 --> 02:00:05,280
conclusions and these people who are

3352
02:00:08,950 --> 02:00:06,960
coming up with these theories about

3353
02:00:10,470 --> 02:00:08,960
ponds and things sticking out of them it

3354
02:00:12,149 --> 02:00:10,480
seems to me they've got a problem

3355
02:00:15,189 --> 02:00:12,159
somewhere because they just simply

3356
02:00:18,070 --> 02:00:15,199
cannot accept that it could be something

3357
02:00:19,669 --> 02:00:18,080
genuinely anomalous i could be wrong

3358
02:00:21,350 --> 02:00:19,679
and to actually to act

3359
02:00:23,750 --> 02:00:21,360
i mean i've i've been involved in this

3360
02:00:26,070 --> 02:00:23,760
subject for 35 years i've been

3361
02:00:28,550 --> 02:00:26,080
involved in the unveiling of numerous

3362
02:00:30,950 --> 02:00:28,560
fakes photographed ufo photographs so i

3363
02:00:33,270 --> 02:00:30,960
know how dangerous it is to to sort of

3364
02:00:36,149 --> 02:00:33,280
say i think this one is genuine and i

3365
02:00:37,430 --> 02:00:36,159
suppose i've i've stuck my you know i've

3366
02:00:39,430 --> 02:00:37,440
gone out there on a limb which is

3367
02:00:41,189 --> 02:00:39,440
something i don't normally do but in

3368
02:00:43,109 --> 02:00:41,199
this case i'd written that story for the

3369
02:00:45,430 --> 02:00:43,119
daily mail completely straight just

3370
02:00:48,149 --> 02:00:45,440
based upon what um craig had told me i

3371
02:00:49,750 --> 02:00:48,159
didn't go into any um speculation about

3372
02:00:51,750 --> 02:00:49,760
what it could possibly be they threw it

3373
02:00:53,669 --> 02:00:51,760
back to me they said this is no good our

3374
02:00:55,750 --> 02:00:53,679
readers want an opinion i want you to

3375
02:00:57,589 --> 02:00:55,760
rewrite it in the first person and we

3376
02:00:59,350 --> 02:00:57,599
want to know what you think about it so

3377
02:01:01,030 --> 02:00:59,360
this idea that journalists can't express

3378
02:01:03,030 --> 02:01:01,040
an opinion is just complete nonsense

3379
02:01:05,510 --> 02:01:03,040
these people clearly never read the

3380
02:01:07,910 --> 02:01:05,520
daily mail every story's got an opinion

3381
02:01:10,070 --> 02:01:07,920
in it and so so i was asked to give an

3382
02:01:12,790 --> 02:01:10,080
opinion my best opinion is that's what

3383
02:01:14,870 --> 02:01:12,800
it was that an andrews i hadn't even

3384
02:01:17,189 --> 02:01:14,880
read seen andrew's analysis when he came

3385
02:01:18,870 --> 02:01:17,199
up with that and you know he seems to

3386
02:01:20,550 --> 02:01:18,880
have reached his conclusion based upon a

3387
02:01:22,070 --> 02:01:20,560
completely different set of evidence

3388
02:01:24,390 --> 02:01:22,080
using the photographic what's on the

3389
02:01:26,470 --> 02:01:24,400
photograph that that was something in

3390
02:01:28,070 --> 02:01:26,480
the sky it wasn't near the camera and

3391
02:01:29,510 --> 02:01:28,080
that seems to sort of fit with

3392
02:01:33,669 --> 02:01:29,520
everything i've heard from all these

3393
02:01:35,430 --> 02:01:33,679
different uh intelligence rafdis sources

3394
02:01:37,430 --> 02:01:35,440
we could be wrong and if it's a hoax

3395
02:01:39,030 --> 02:01:37,440
i'll be the first person to stand put my

3396
02:01:41,430 --> 02:01:39,040
hand up and say yeah it's the hook it

3397
02:01:43,430 --> 02:01:41,440
doesn't make it any less of a good story

3398
02:01:46,229 --> 02:01:43,440
because another story in the daily mail

3399
02:01:48,550 --> 02:01:46,239
saying two young chefs um produce these

3400
02:01:50,790 --> 02:01:48,560
photographs went to ground fooled

3401
02:01:52,870 --> 02:01:50,800
the raf's finest jarek fooled the

3402
02:01:54,310 --> 02:01:52,880
pentagon that's a bloody good story as

3403
02:01:57,270 --> 02:01:54,320
well so i'll be writing a story for

3404
02:01:59,430 --> 02:01:57,280
daily mail on that so it's to me so what

3405
02:02:02,229 --> 02:01:59,440
i've changed my mind big deal let's get

3406
02:02:04,070 --> 02:02:02,239
the investigation done yeah and i think

3407
02:02:05,589 --> 02:02:04,080
at one point i should make knowing you

3408
02:02:07,350 --> 02:02:05,599
quite well know david is everyone has

3409
02:02:09,669 --> 02:02:07,360
you painted as this non-believer this

3410
02:02:11,350 --> 02:02:09,679
big skeptic you're just open-minded but

3411
02:02:12,790 --> 02:02:11,360
you follow the data i mean you are

3412
02:02:14,870 --> 02:02:12,800
you're not that i mean you've even got a

3413
02:02:17,669 --> 02:02:14,880
ufo on your t-shirt

3414
02:02:19,669 --> 02:02:17,679
yep californian one

3415
02:02:21,030 --> 02:02:19,679
no i just digest i just want to raise

3416
02:02:23,109 --> 02:02:21,040
this point here we've been asked if

3417
02:02:25,030 --> 02:02:23,119
we've contacted the former receptionist

3418
02:02:27,109 --> 02:02:25,040
at the athol palace hotel about the name

3419
02:02:28,070 --> 02:02:27,119
yeah listen we're way past all that we

3420
02:02:30,070 --> 02:02:28,080
are

3421
02:02:32,149 --> 02:02:30,080
passed all that

3422
02:02:33,990 --> 02:02:32,159
i can say more i can't say more than

3423
02:02:35,669 --> 02:02:34,000
that but we are past all those basic

3424
02:02:36,470 --> 02:02:35,679
steps yeah we are

3425
02:02:38,790 --> 02:02:36,480
so

3426
02:02:40,870 --> 02:02:38,800
listen guys before we finish does anyone

3427
02:02:45,109 --> 02:02:40,880
have anything they want to raise before

3428
02:02:49,510 --> 02:02:47,350
if anybody's out there watching this and

3429
02:02:51,189 --> 02:02:49,520
they know who

3430
02:02:52,950 --> 02:02:51,199
the pilots are

3431
02:02:55,589 --> 02:02:52,960
and the chefs are

3432
02:02:56,470 --> 02:02:55,599
get in touch with this gentleman here

3433
02:02:58,310 --> 02:02:56,480
yeah

3434
02:03:02,450 --> 02:02:58,320
or any of us because we can all fly

3435
02:03:07,510 --> 02:03:05,669
[Laughter]

3436
02:03:09,030 --> 02:03:07,520
i just want to thank everyone who's been

3437
02:03:10,629 --> 02:03:09,040
involved i know i'd do this at the end

3438
02:03:13,350 --> 02:03:10,639
of each of these shows but

3439
02:03:14,709 --> 02:03:13,360
matthew absolutely amazing

3440
02:03:15,910 --> 02:03:14,719
honestly matthew you've missed your

3441
02:03:18,629 --> 02:03:15,920
vocation you should have been an

3442
02:03:21,030 --> 02:03:18,639
investigation

3443
02:03:23,589 --> 02:03:21,040
andrew's photographic knowledge is just

3444
02:03:25,669 --> 02:03:23,599
second to none giles has local knowledge

3445
02:03:27,750 --> 02:03:25,679
um graham's knowledge of aircraft and

3446
02:03:29,510 --> 02:03:27,760
that just leaves me amazed and vinnie

3447
02:03:31,430 --> 02:03:29,520
for all put hanging this whole thing

3448
02:03:32,790 --> 02:03:31,440
together and making it

3449
02:03:34,790 --> 02:03:32,800
making it come together which is not an

3450
02:03:36,950 --> 02:03:34,800
easy job in itself

3451
02:03:38,229 --> 02:03:36,960
ah thank you so much david honestly i've

3452
02:03:39,910 --> 02:03:38,239
learned so much from you in the last

3453
02:03:41,669 --> 02:03:39,920
year it's been incredible and getting to

3454
02:03:43,270 --> 02:03:41,679
know you as a friend it's so good that

3455
02:03:45,109 --> 02:03:43,280
we actually connected and get to hang

3456
02:03:47,589 --> 02:03:45,119
out in sheffield as well and not just

3457
02:03:51,510 --> 02:03:49,510
treasure memories of that day that we

3458
02:03:53,270 --> 02:03:51,520
went to scotland to collect them oh that

3459
02:03:56,229 --> 02:03:53,280
was incredible

3460
02:03:58,550 --> 02:03:56,239
sitting in mcdonald's afterwards

3461
02:04:00,229 --> 02:03:58,560
and that we did have a celebratory drink

3462
02:04:02,229 --> 02:04:00,239
we did and i still remember the black

3463
02:04:03,830 --> 02:04:02,239
pudding scotch egg on the way up but

3464
02:04:06,310 --> 02:04:03,840
yeah

3465
02:04:08,950 --> 02:04:06,320
i know you're talking

3466
02:04:10,790 --> 02:04:08,960
okay then guys i want to say um we may

3467
02:04:13,109 --> 02:04:10,800
do a follow-up in a few weeks months

3468
02:04:15,189 --> 02:04:13,119
depending how the investigation goes it

3469
02:04:17,669 --> 02:04:15,199
certainly may die out on the you know on

3470
02:04:20,950 --> 02:04:17,679
the social media talk but it isn't dying

3471
02:04:22,870 --> 02:04:20,960
out for us because it is ongoing but uh

3472
02:04:24,229 --> 02:04:22,880
yeah thank you to all of you gentlemen

3473
02:04:26,069 --> 02:04:24,239
thank you to everyone in the live chat

3474
02:04:28,149 --> 02:04:26,079
for keeping it very cordial i always

3475
02:04:30,709 --> 02:04:28,159
appreciate that i'm actually going to be

3476
02:04:32,629 --> 02:04:30,719
live in 25 minutes over on uap society

3477
02:04:34,310 --> 02:04:32,639
with carl vibe and chris leto to

3478
02:04:37,589 --> 02:04:34,320
interview ross coulthart

3479
02:04:39,430 --> 02:04:37,599
um but yeah guys thank you so much and

3480
02:04:42,229 --> 02:04:39,440
uh we'll see you on the next one i think

3481
02:04:45,109 --> 02:04:42,239
graham is my next guest on my channel